Author Topic: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?  (Read 4624 times)

Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #100 on: February 21, 2013, 02:46:50 AM »
Quote
I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?
John Lennon
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/believe.html#QBoV2HccKCsOSdic.99

That looks more fun to me.

* even if only in the mind

is more like it

Offline Burkingam

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #101 on: February 21, 2013, 03:31:47 AM »
@jaybug Sadly, you can't just wish your fantasies into existence. Reality is the way it is whether you like it or not, and the only way you can affect it is throw your actions, and your ability to foresee how you are gonna affect reality depends directly of your ability from your ability to understand how things are to begin with. There is a lot more harm done in the world because of incompetency, delusions and stupidity than because of malice. In other words, threw your wilful self-delusion, not only are you fooling yourself, but you are also, at some level, turning yourself into a danger for those whom you have contacts with.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #102 on: February 21, 2013, 04:39:41 AM »
@jaybug Sadly, you can't just wish your fantasies into existence. Reality is the way it is whether you like it or not, and the only way you can affect it is throw your actions, and your ability to foresee how you are gonna affect reality depends directly of your ability from your ability to understand how things are to begin with. There is a lot more harm done in the world because of incompetency, delusions and stupidity than because of malice. In other words, threw your wilful self-delusion, not only are you fooling yourself, but you are also, at some level, turning yourself into a danger for those whom you have contacts with.

I'm glad you are not my quantum mechanic. Besides, what do you think prayer and meditation are? Even a lot of atheists meditate. 

Quote
There is a lot more harm done in the world because of incompetency, delusions and stupidity than because of malice. In other words, threw your wilful self-delusion, not only are you fooling yourself, but you are also, at some level, turning yourself into a danger for those whom you have contacts with.

So why is it you cannot get enough government? Your line is one of my favorite reasons to decrease the size of government.
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #103 on: February 21, 2013, 04:52:41 AM »
@jaybug Sadly, you can't just wish your fantasies into existence. Reality is the way it is whether you like it or not, and the only way you can affect it is throw your actions, and your ability to foresee how you are gonna affect reality depends directly of your ability from your ability to understand how things are to begin with. There is a lot more harm done in the world because of incompetency, delusions and stupidity than because of malice. In other words, threw your wilful self-delusion, not only are you fooling yourself, but you are also, at some level, turning yourself into a danger for those whom you have contacts with.

I'm glad you are not my quantum mechanic. Besides, what do you think prayer and meditation are? Even a lot of atheists meditate. 

Have you ever meditated? I mean, a true attempt.
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Offline Burkingam

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #104 on: February 21, 2013, 05:01:53 AM »
Since when do government don't have a monopoly on incompetency, delusions and stupidity?

Please keep going. What do quantum physic and meditation has to do with any of what I'm saying?
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Offline jaybug

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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #106 on: February 21, 2013, 05:51:19 AM »
Yes I have. It isn't equivalent to prayer. In fact, conceptually speaking meditation's diametrically opposed to prayer despite having religious significance in some contexts.
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Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #107 on: February 21, 2013, 05:55:29 AM »
Indeed.

Offline Tiffanys

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #108 on: February 21, 2013, 10:29:00 AM »
I'd like to imagine that dragons existed but whatever gas made them light and allowed them to breath fire also ended up turning their remains to ash after they died. Of course, that's not to say I do...

In regards to prayer, I think it's a mental disorder akin to schizophrenia. In fact, I think most devoutly religious people suffer from this ailment. You know, those people who can see something with a seemingly obvious scientific explanation and say "it must have been the work of god!" and then when something bad happens they turn around and say "well, god must have a plan." Listening to these people I just can't help but feel bad for how pathetic they've become. It's just as bad as the damn primitives sacrificing people because they think the drought they're going through is punishment from their gods. People nowadays have equally ridiculous beliefs but we call it "faith," and somehow it's okay.

It's not okay... these people are sick, and they need help. They've mentally devolved back thousands of years...

Offline Ixarku

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #109 on: February 21, 2013, 10:57:27 AM »
Yes I have. It isn't equivalent to prayer. In fact, conceptually speaking meditation's diametrically opposed to prayer despite having religious significance in some contexts.

I remember seeing one of those Discovery channel-type science programs where some scientist was doing MRIs or the like on people during prayer and during meditation, and found that a different area of the brain was active for people during prayer.  Of course, he didn't draw any conclusions as to why this difference occurred, he just noted that it did occur.
 
 
 
Since when do government don't have a monopoly on incompetency, delusions and stupidity?

You know, I'm sick of Americans using the "government is bad" excuse for not solving problems.  It pisses me off because the people that fill those government positions are us.  We put them there.  If only the cream of the crap get elected, then the responsibility falls squarely on the American people for tolerating such incompetence.  Conversely, if elected & appointed officials are a representative sample of Americans, then how sad are we as a people for putting so many incompetent boobs in power.  The problem isn't this nebulous concept of big government -- the problem is American tolerance for mediocrity.  So yeah Burk you are completely right -- the same pool of people wrecking things in the government are the same people who are wrecking things in the private sector.
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Offline occasional

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #110 on: February 21, 2013, 11:29:23 AM »
I'd like to imagine that dragons existed but whatever gas made them light and allowed them to breath fire also ended up turning their remains to ash after they died. Of course, that's not to say I do...

In regards to prayer, I think it's a mental disorder akin to schizophrenia. In fact, I think most devoutly religious people suffer from this ailment. You know, those people who can see something with a seemingly obvious scientific explanation and say "it must have been the work of god!" and then when something bad happens they turn around and say "well, god must have a plan." Listening to these people I just can't help but feel bad for how pathetic they've become. It's just as bad as the damn primitives sacrificing people because they think the drought they're going through is punishment from their gods. People nowadays have equally ridiculous beliefs but we call it "faith," and somehow it's okay.

It's not okay... these people are sick, and they need help. They've mentally devolved back thousands of years...

You have to make a distinction between people who merely believe in religion and people who actually believe they see or are in touch with the imaginary beings they believe in.

The first case is no different from what the vast majority of people, including atheists, do, which is to believe in the unproven merely because it fits one's political/social ideology or worldview, and to go to enormous lengths to rationalize their decisions and views. To some extent this is unavoidable because it's our nature, but most people aren't even aware they're doing it.
Believing in something without real proof, especially if it fits your worldview, is irrational.
(A good book on this subject is Irrationality bu Stuart Sutherland).

In the latter case, House said it best, as always:

Quote
If you talk to God you're religious. If God talks to you, you're psychotic
.

Offline Tiffanys

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #111 on: February 21, 2013, 11:42:11 AM »
Talking to yourself and expecting an answer is irrational.

Seeing something happen like a repair man coming and fixing your electric as a miraculous work of god rather than just your neighbor calling and reporting the power out, is not only irrational but delusional. These people actually believe shit like this...

Someone that's sick gets better? It's the work of god. Had to be a miracle. No, couldn't have been the Doctors caring for them, had to be a mysterious act of the divine. Cat comes home? Couldn't have been a territorial animal that stays in the same area anyways that got hungry, no... had to be god.

I can go on and on, it's just ludicrous. And that's even without getting to the point that people are thinking they're actually hearing back from the divine.

Though, physically hearing a response and believing practically anything is a response is just as bad in my opinion. Both cases are borderline schizophrenia.

With that said, I don't know many Atheists that believe in something that can't be proved. Disbelieve in something that can't be proved perhaps, but not the other way around.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 11:44:30 AM by Tiffanys »

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #112 on: February 21, 2013, 02:55:10 PM »
Yes I have. It isn't equivalent to prayer. In fact, conceptually speaking meditation's diametrically opposed to prayer despite having religious significance in some contexts.

I remember seeing one of those Discovery channel-type science programs where some scientist was doing MRIs or the like on people during prayer and during meditation, and found that a different area of the brain was active for people during prayer.  Of course, he didn't draw any conclusions as to why this difference occurred, he just noted that it did occur.

Meditation may be used for a variety of purposes, but it's inherently introspective. Whether you are achieving focus or tranquility, conventional thought is what you're trying to escape. Usually you try to create a visual you can concentrate on, an utterance that's otherwise meaningless, or attempt to quiet all thought... which is damned hard. It requires the parts of your brain least concerned with your inner voice, and a lot of time and effort to achieve.

Prayer is about transmitting your thoughts outward into the divine -- whatever you believe that means. You think loudly in the general direction of everywhere, much like in normal conversation or when reading. It's a simple, comforting ritual -- with no real difference for a layman than for a priest except in potential repetition.

The difference between meditation and prayer seems irrelevant until you get into comparative theology and neurology.

Here's an article on the study you are probably referencing, comparing brain activity under prayer and meditation -- and between the religious and atheists.

Since when do government don't have a monopoly on incompetency, delusions and stupidity?

You know, I'm sick of Americans using the "government is bad" excuse for not solving problems.  It pisses me off because the people that fill those government positions are us.  We put them there.  If only the cream of the crap get elected, then the responsibility falls squarely on the American people for tolerating such incompetence.  Conversely, if elected & appointed officials are a representative sample of Americans, then how sad are we as a people for putting so many incompetent boobs in power.  The problem isn't this nebulous concept of big government -- the problem is American tolerance for mediocrity.  So yeah Burk you are completely right -- the same pool of people wrecking things in the government are the same people who are wrecking things in the private sector.

The propensity for so-called conservatives to blur the lines between ineffective government and all government in the last 3 decades has contributed to that. It gives a carte blanche excuse to undermine government completely. Resulting in -- with no small amount of sour irony -- government being legitimately ineffective. The simple act of saying government isn't an evil leech we must kill and Americans have some obligations to participate in the public sphere and improve things, got Obama stuck in Stalin-hood for millions. Good leadership requires fundamentally that one cares, caring about your country in anything but the most superficial ways is somewhat out of vogue.

Still, I'd prefer living in America than being a Catholic anywhere as it stands.
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Offline Burkingam

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #113 on: February 21, 2013, 04:11:03 PM »
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399877/?ref_=sr_1

I assume you are asking me, because I doubt you ask Burk anything. lol But yes I have. Pray more often now, it's like the short form to me. Do you?

http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743498968/0743498968.htm?blurb&__utma=222178315.242732488.1361427999.1361427999.1361427999.1&__utmb=222178315.4.10.1361427999&__utmc=222178315&__utmx=-&__utmz=222178315.1361427999.1.1.utmcsr=%28direct%29|utmccn=%28direct%29|utmcmd=%28none%29&__utmv=-&__utmk=152677946

Dude, he's got the phDs not me.
Lets pretend for the sack of argument that all this new age crap is serious business. Lets pretend that we actually have established scientifically that thinking something somehow makes it so and that as you seem to be suggesting, believing something is equivalent of wishing it.

Then, may I ask why would you want green technologies to fail? Why would you want big governments to be corrupt and inefficient? Why would you want poor people to be lazy? Why would you want illegal immigrants to be the bane of society as opposed to just normal people who wish to come live a productive life in USA? Hey if you want to take leftist fringe ideas you should try to get all the good parts that come with it.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #114 on: February 22, 2013, 12:17:51 AM »
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If only the cream of the crap get elected,
I see what you did there! lmao!

Ix, it isn't the elected officials that bother me as much s it is the unelected bureaucrats that cannot be removed except by death no matter how incompetent.

When a private concern is poorly run it goes out of business, unless it is too big to fail, wherein it gets a taxpayer handout. ON the other hand, when a government run entity is run into the ground, they throw more money at it, and make no effort to make it run better, revise it  or anything. If it is run so badly, what they do is make an entirely new outfit to do the same thing as the old one, so now there are two pieces of shit sucking up tax money and providing little benefit to the people whom they are to benefit.

That's right Ix, they are the same people. So why does the left think that if business is evil, government will be any better?

Man, I am so glad I do not have your concepts of religion, spirituality, or whatever. What you think absolutely horrifies me.
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Offline Ixarku

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #115 on: February 22, 2013, 03:09:14 AM »
Ix, it isn't the elected officials that bother me as much s it is the unelected bureaucrats that cannot be removed except by death no matter how incompetent.

When a private concern is poorly run it goes out of business, unless it is too big to fail, wherein it gets a taxpayer handout. ON the other hand, when a government run entity is run into the ground, they throw more money at it, and make no effort to make it run better, revise it  or anything. If it is run so badly, what they do is make an entirely new outfit to do the same thing as the old one, so now there are two pieces of shit sucking up tax money and providing little benefit to the people whom they are to benefit.

That's right Ix, they are the same people. So why does the left think that if business is evil, government will be any better?

I don't think I've ever seen a liberal (or any conservative for that matter) say that government is wonderful, but the expectations of each side are obviously different.  In the broadest view, conservatives seem to want government out of people's lives as much as possible, while liberals expect government to take a hand in fixing or preventing the evils of the world.  Conservatives seem to think that market forces will just magically balance out the evils & excesses of the world, nevermind humanity's inclination to ruthlessly exploit whatever resource we can get our hands on regardless of the consequences.  I think the reason why we see liberals championing government intervention instead of private concerns is that our government is supposed to be representative & inclusive of all of us, whereas private concerns / business is ultimately answerable only to one thing -- making its owners money.
 
The most realistic attitude is to acknowledge that both private and public sectors, business and government, indeed humanity as whole, simply sucks.  But change codified in law and enforced by government is a powerful tool for shaping society, and I think it's the best tool we have at our disposal.  Law, properly applied, can shape society in ways both subtle and gross, for good or ill.  Law can reign in the excesses of the private sector, but it doesn't really work the other way around.  I can certainly get behind the idea of reforming government bureaucracy; it's logical and it's necessary, but a dysfunctional bureaucracy is no excuse for dismissing the potential benefits of a government that should be working for everyone's benefit.
 
In other words, if it's broke, simply putting up with it doesn't fly with me anymore.  Either we fix it or we throw it away.

Man, I am so glad I do not have your concepts of religion, spirituality, or whatever. What you think absolutely horrifies me.

I'm assuming you're directing this last part at Burk since you two clash so much on this stuff.
 
Myself, I can get behind the secular humanist approach to life.  And my approach to God is pretty simple -- I would never, ever worship any deity that threatens me with eternal torment for non-belief.  Persuading or cajoling people into belief goes against every fiber of my being, and that's not going to change in this life.  In the absence of convincing evidence, I won't categorically deny the possibility of a divine superbeing, but I'm highly skeptical that Christianity has the right vision of one.  Maybe the word of God really was handed down to some superstitious primitive thousands of years ago, but I rather think that something got lost in the translation at some point or another.
 
I am somewhat interested in seeing who will take up the almighty Pope hat this time around, and whether it will mark the beginnings of any significant shift in Catholic dogma.
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Offline jaybug

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #116 on: February 22, 2013, 05:37:29 AM »
Ix; I never really thought of you as a staunch atheist. And about government, I think we are at least close to barking up the same tree. Bark up, bark down, whatever...lol

The past two terms I have been reading a lot of pre-victorian English literature. And I a few terms back took a Victorian era Industrial literature class. Man, there are so many freakin' similarities between then and now it's not funny. I mean we have those on top, who can't really run their own businesses. We have government who can't make any good changes, because the money is coming in from the sides that demand things remain the same, the sides being those who have money, and those who have power. Meanwhile ordinary people are takin' it up the yik-yak, while those who like it the way it is get away with it all.

This in no way reflects what is actually supposed to happen under Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" that governs market forces. Keeping your thumb on the scale does not allow for that hand to work as it needs to. What happens is "market bubbles."

got to go
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #117 on: February 22, 2013, 06:11:11 AM »
Adam Smith has as much to do with contemporary economics in the Western world as Karl Marx does in China, or Christ in the Vatican.
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Offline Ixarku

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #118 on: February 22, 2013, 11:06:36 AM »
The market may be able to balance economic forces effectively, but the problem is there is nothing inherent to protect people & the environment from exploitation.  This is where the government has a role to play.  I see an inherent value in trying to keep the playing field level, but the issue of course is trying to find a proper balance between the two.
 
In credit processing, we've seen a lot of banks scrambling to become compliant with new laws over the last few years, while at the same time trying to come up with new products & processes to circumvent those laws whenever possible.  It's something that frustrates me to no end.  I applaud the government's intent, but I question the effectiveness of some of the specific decisions they made.  And I think within another 10 years or so, we're going to see a new deluge of stories in the media about how banks are raping consumers again.  When the forces that control the market are in collusion, the tug of war between the market and the regulators benefits nobody in the end.
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Offline Burkingam

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Re: So, whose the next one to get the nice hat?
« Reply #119 on: February 22, 2013, 12:48:04 PM »
Another inherent problem with capitalism is that while it encourages the search of profit over everything else, it also makes sure that it pays more to serves those who need help the less over those who need it the most (the wealthy over the poor). This is why, for example, there is so much time and energy spent trying to dig out diamonds and gold (even though they are relatively useless), and meanwhile it takes a governmental intervention if we want to improve the accessibility of high level education.
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