Is Fanservice hate nonsense?

[Nikkoru]

You can't slut shame a fictional character. I'm sorry, you can't.

There's a difference between a real person who owns their body and has free will and someone drawing or writing their own sexual fantasy. They do not get the same respect and in no way should.

Also, there's a difference between cheesecake and mature sexuality. The latter isn't gratuitous and doesn't detract from the narrative, or might be salient to its themes. For an example, Mamoru Oshii's Ghost in the Shell is a brilliant and milestone work in the artistic history of anime. It prominently features extended shots of its doll-like protagonist in the nude, twice. It isn't however, just mindless titillation that we're spending these long moments glancing voyueristically at the Major's physical form. There's a reason for those shots to be there, just as there are reasons for every single image in an Oshii production, and that's to express the complication of sexuality and the artificial nature of the protagonist. Oshii intentionally makes her non-sexual in voice, posture, attitude - in the same token she's deprived of most visible signs of humanity.  We see her being built, literally, and that's something we are aware of until the conclusion, where she is, again literally, deconstructed.

Another example is Cowboy Bebop, which used overt sexuality. Usually in reference the American exploitation movies it was paying homage too. The hyper-sexualized female bodies depicted at times are juxtaposed against more realistic personalities and circumstances, the world of Bebop isn't just one thing and nor are its characters.

Even Elfin Lied, while being a miserable sack of nihilism, didn't violate the tone or substance of the show through its overt use of T&A.

My top ten.. hell, my top twenty anime have very little fanservice involved, there are very few anime labelled "ecchi" that I care about in the least.

[Pentium100]

For some series the fanservice (and I am using this term to mean the ecchi fanservice) is OK, but I wish some other would not have it.

For example, take, say, Moetan - fanservice is OK there as the series do not really have an interesting plot. Same could be said about Strike Witches or Sky Girls.

On the other hand, I really wish the Nanoha movies did not have the extended transformation scenes - the movies are quite good action movies, but I know that some people would just latch on those scenes and not see the rest of the movie ("Well, we watched a movie where a 9 year old gets naked and then fights another 9 year old").
Also, Kodomo no Jikan has quite an interesting plot, but the fan service makes it so that the series cannot be shown on TV and may be illegal to posses in some countries.

My opinion about fanservice is that if you don't need it then don't add it, it will make bad anime a bit better (maybe worth watching just for the fanservice), but good anime worse. For example, I really don't think that upskirt shots would have improved Card Captor Sakura or Gosick.

Or in other words, "I can't care about female characters unless they're figureless, sexless dialogue machines, just like my hero Ayn Rand." Just another one of those "everything must be completely innocent or hardcore pornography, no middle ground is allowed" types.

No, but I have a hard time taking a show seriously if its female characters are pretty much naked all the time or of the show spends more time showing the character's tits or ass (or panties) than showing her face. And even harder time showing it to others, especially if some of those characters are underage.

After all, you do not see a lot of "fanservice scenes" in live action movies. Yes, there are some, but not as much as in modern anime and all are legal.

[Lord of Fire]

Also, Kodomo no Jikan has quite an interesting plot, but the fan service makes it so that the series cannot be shown on TV and may be illegal to posses in some countries.

And yet, it serves a purpose, and arguably, an important one, at that. It's there to show us how these girls develop (sexually) over the course of (roughly) three years.

A lot of people have issues with this (probably because the very topic of a child being sexually active is one society frowns upon), but I can't really think of a better way to show how these girls deal with their desires than by having them do every 'dirty' trick in the book, from showing off their underwear to masturbating.

[lololitas]

A lot of people have issues with this (probably because the very topic of a child being sexually active is one society frowns upon), but I can't really think of a better way to show how these girls deal with their desires than by having them do every 'dirty' trick in the book, from showing off their underwear to masturbating.

Not the case in germany, I remember seeing a mother at a local store discuss with the clerk which type of condom would be best for her 12 yo son. Considering that sex-ed starts in second grade (with a funny cartoon movie to boot) here, and that non explicit sexscenes are usually rated 12+ I don't think fan-service has anything to do with what series air here. An example would be serial experiments lain, where her scant dressing is to show her neglect of societal values and it's not used as an eyecatch. The series was viewable around noon on Animax (our only anime dedicated channel)

Anyway, I wouldn't put sexual themes on the same level as fanservice in general. There might be no visual difference, but the former actually has story impact while the other is just there to bind peoples' (arguably mens') eyes. I do hate it when a series that is not a comedy has totally out of place fanservice, however when you look at shinsekai yori (not really fanservice but more provoking themes) I think it belongs there for explaining certain concepts the series tries to show.

Edit: Both don't really fit the steroetype of fanservice, however I do know some people in jordan and the US whose parents were agitated by these scenes Oo

[Pentium100]

And yet, it serves a purpose, and arguably, an important one, at that. It's there to show us how these girls develop (sexually) over the course of (roughly) three years.

A lot of people have issues with this (probably because the very topic of a child being sexually active is one society frowns upon), but I can't really think of a better way to show how these girls deal with their desires than by having them do every 'dirty' trick in the book, from showing off their underwear to masturbating.

However, it could have been implied without actually being shown. The same way in a live action movie they can imply that a character is naked without showing tits or ass, just by using various camera angles (example here - in most anime, you would get the full view even though the character would have "anime anatomy"). Same could be done here, the viewer did not need to see what the teacher saw to understand what he saw.

[zherok]

Also, there's a difference between cheesecake and mature sexuality.

I think this one area that Japanese media often likes to ignore. Sexuality is something that the character needs to keyed in on.

But instead you have things like the newest FFXIII game, where the developer acknowledged purposefully increasing Lightning's bust size (pretty much "because.") The reason why it matters is not because she got a virtual boob job, but because it in no way reflects any on her character. There's nothing wrong with larger boobs, or her displaying her figure, but when it's purely aesthetic, it borders on the voyeuristic. It exists solely to entice the player. And when creators go down that route they're inherently creating less well-rounded female characters. If you're going to make them sexy, and least have them aware of it.

[Lord of Fire]

And yet, it serves a purpose, and arguably, an important one, at that. It's there to show us how these girls develop (sexually) over the course of (roughly) three years.

A lot of people have issues with this (probably because the very topic of a child being sexually active is one society frowns upon), but I can't really think of a better way to show how these girls deal with their desires than by having them do every 'dirty' trick in the book, from showing off their underwear to masturbating.

However, it could have been implied without actually being shown. The same way in a live action movie they can imply that a character is naked without showing tits or ass, just by using various camera angles (example here - in most anime, you would get the full view even though the character would have "anime anatomy"). Same could be done here, the viewer did not need to see what the teacher saw to understand what he saw.

I'm not convinced, as that would leave to much open to interpretation. Take that scene you linked to for example. We only see the woman's bare shoulders and her legs and feet. They're implying that she's naked, but is she really? Maybe she's wearing shorts, or just her underwear?

Showing everything in full view makes it more clear and direct, compared to the alternative. Plus, it gives you the impression that Rin is not your average little girl, which is what the author wants.

And I never understood why people have issues with seeing fictional characters naked in the first place.

[Pentium100]

I'm not convinced, as that would leave to much open to interpretation. Take that scene you linked to for example. We only see the woman's bare shoulders and her legs and feet. They're implying that she's naked, but is she really? Maybe she's wearing shorts, or just her underwear?

Well, this is a common shorthand for "naked character, but we did not want to show the actress naked" the reason being the rating or just that the actor did not want to film naked (or they could offer enough money for it).

Showing everything in full view makes it more clear and direct, compared to the alternative. Plus, it gives you the impression that Rin is not your average little girl, which is what the author wants.

While it does make everything clear beyond a shadow of a doubt to everyone, you average viewer will be able to understand the implied nudity. The same way we understand that the anime characters do not have green or blue hair unless they dye it (but that would have to be shown) just that it is easier to differentiate the characters when they have different color hair or it is done for aesthetic reasons.

And I never understood why people have issues with seeing fictional characters naked in the first place.

I don't really understand why people have a problem with other people (real or drawn) being naked. However, it is like that and it is the first thing that a lot of people latch on - look what happened to KnJ. Plot or no plot, KnJ is "the anime show with naked little girls" and is probably considered child porn in some countries.

OK, enough about KnJ, there are also other fanservice that has even less reason to be there: upskirt panty shots. No reason at all. Yes, by default we assume that the character is wearing panties, no need to explicitly show it. There is no reason to put the camera on the ground facing up and have the character (wearing a skirt) stand above it.
Oh, and don't forget the transformation scenes - no need for that too, just show the character transform quickly (as was done in the Nanoha movies except for one scene in each movie).

[Bob2004]

OK, enough about KnJ, there are also other fanservice that has even less reason to be there: upskirt panty shots. No reason at all. Yes, by default we assume that the character is wearing panties, no need to explicitly show it. There is no reason to put the camera on the ground facing up and have the character (wearing a skirt) stand above it.
Oh, and don't forget the transformation scenes - no need for that too, just show the character transform quickly (as was done in the Nanoha movies except for one scene in each movie).

That reminds me of Hatsukoi Limited. The show itself was... fine, nothing special, but I could really have done without the constant upskirt shots of fourteen year old girls. Even leaving aside the very obvious age issues, it was in rather poor taste, and served absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Hardly uncommon either, and although that show was admittedly more egregious than some, it's not hard to see why most people look down on anime when it's full of that kind of stuff.

[SlightlyMad]

Well heres the rub. Whats the difference between fanservice and erotic content. Fanservice I believe by it's true definition Is something erotic artificially and uncontextually added to something to provoke some titillation Usually with all the subtlety of an anvil to the head. From the viewer.  And has little to no other bearing or relevance to the story. In small amounts this kind of "fan-service" does not do much to detract from the overall work. But there ARE cases where basically something semi serious has watched like someone decided right everyone likes boobies so let's cut 5 second snippets of softcore porn at regular intervals into everything we do that will make it better right ? RIGHT ??

Actually No.

But we must make the distinction between fan-service and erotic content. If the premise of a show is basically erotic and that is what the market is after then the product is fine no matter how much so called "fan-service" it has. Or a show may simply be silly enough that such erotic content doesn't really detract from any emotions that are solicited by the work and therefore still totally cool. And in shows that do it less often too. If a scene is appropriately erotic then no one really has the right to complain.

So yeah I have a problem with "excessive fan service" but I really don't think my own definition of fan-service corroborates well with other peoples. I would say that excessive fan service ruined Highschool of the Dead. Since the premise was clearly supposed to be taken seriously. The constant barrage of boobs and camel-toes just made it all feel surreal and silly. But i Definateley would not say the same of ladies vs butlers. Top notch erotic comedy imho. With nothing to be ashamed of. And indeed erotic content can often be added to much more serious works beneficially as long as subtlety is employed.

The problem people have with fan-service interfering with serious works IS a real one in my opinion. But far less of it happens than people claim. Alot of this is simple prudish backlash.

[LillyTown]

Cmon, I think it's obvious.... If you 'hate' a series for it's fanservice, then I guess you should quit watching it. Could some shows be 'better' with less fanservice? Sure but then they wouldn't be the same show(that's simple logic, if you change something it's no longer the same, don't even try to argue it) Obviously, I'm arguing from a painfully logical viewpoint here, read on for a more mature and meaningful response....

I enjoy the fanservice in some shows, especially pantyshots of tiny little girls. I like lolis, girls like Shana... better yet, Shana-tan. Yeah, I'm *real* damn creepy and I'm proud of it. I feel it's best used in shows where the art is professional looking and kept to a few brief moments in a typical episode. That way it doesn't seem like it was made *just* for the sexual imagery and it remains an occasional 'treat'. In 'Railgun' you get a glimpse of panties fairly often but it's momentary and obviously a quality show. The art is also nice, wonky looking fanservice is just bad.

Girls with almost-SD loli proportions just don't exist. I have a feeling someone would argue 'dwarfs' as being somewhat similarly proportioned. If this is you, get your eyes checked. You could also argue that risque imagery should be left to actual hentai but every time I try to find hentai that I like the girls are proportioned completely differently, usually more realistically and mundane. Further, the animation *tends* to be poor in comparison.

I really don't see  how fanservice is hurting anyone, I feel like a lot of people are butthurt that a show didn't live up to their hopes and dreams and need a target for their anger. I think these people will have to learn some day that the world doesn't revolve around them and 'X show' wasn't made *just* for them. If you don't like the writing(or maybe it is the fanservice that they hate....), move on and find something that you do enjoy. If it's a popular show that is receiving the hate it's even more clear that the 'haters' are morons because it doesn't matter that they dislike the show. It's fulfilling it's goal of turning a buck and if 'Joe Bob of Texas' doesn't like it that's too fuckin' bad. He should watch something else instead of bitching about 'X show' not being suited to his taste.

Well, I think I said the same thing like 9 different ways and still didn't cover everything I wanted to but there should be some good points in there somewhere.

[SlightlyMad]

Hmm Like I said above subtlety is often the key. Thing is people don't just bring up sex or make erotic poses in the middle of doing something serious at least not often. To many this breaks thair immersion and believability. Sex isn't anything to be ashamed of. But neither are apples. And let's now go to an alternate universe where applies are kinda taboo and everyone loves to see them in a totally wrong way. You're watching some cool fighting scene and all of a sudden apples start raining down from the sky. Pretty distracting and inappropriate even if not entirely unwelcome. That's bad fan-service. And apple dropping of a tree while a young couple hold hands under it. Causing them to blush. THAT'S good fan-service. Like everything else it's all about context and implementation. But yeah I totally agree that people usually over react. They think that somehow the fan-service replaced something good. What they refuse to acknowledge is that if a show is filling itself up with inappropriate fan-service they where totally running out of ideas anyway. Still this is where I feel the problem lies. I feel the Anime industry is trying to make too much. It should produce fewer shows but better.

[LillyTown]

I felt your examples were poor. Why is it ok to put fanservice of X character while Y and Z are sharing a romantic moment but not during an action scene? Further, I find it more believable in a situation like this: Schoolgirl Y is fighting the monster of the week and jumps out of the way to dodge his hammer of death attack. The camera pans and zooms and we catch a decent glimpse of her panties or cleavage. That's more believable to me than modesty shorts and magical skirts that never reveal anything.

Why is a show filled with 'inappropriate'(in your opinion) fanservice a bad thing? What leads you to believe that they were 'running out of good ideas'? I disagree but I don't mean to argue, I'm curious as to the rationale behind this.

Your final point disregards that money isn't only necessary to survive, it's desirable and if someone can make *more* instead of *less* they will. I feel that some shows are produced out of love/passion(doing it for the art according to TVtropes) and of course all things to some degree. Still, it costs a great deal to produce a TV anime and fanservice is well liked and helps ensure sells.

Further, maybe it's just a creative choice or meant to add to the cuteness? I like cute things and if I were a great artist, I'd produce the cutest art possible. Not to increase sells, because it's beautiful. I think this can apply to even the more 'mature', sexualized fan-service. Perhaps the director just thinks large bouncy breasts are beautiful? If I were directing an anime and had access to a team of top-notch animators, you can bet I'd want some fanservice in there.

I think a lot of younger fans think that lots of fanservice=poor quality/'no plot'. It's like they just want something to be bad, someone to hate and good reason to do so. Plenty of people 'hate' on shows that don't feature fanservice in the same sense but lots of 'moe' characters. I like a lot of those shows and am always confused by the 'no plot' argument. I'm not sure that's even possible but with the massive budgets these shows have I'm sure these 'haters' couldn't do better with all the time in the world. More so, I think these are mostly younger fans that need a very clear, concise story with constant plot advancement... something like:

Johnny the Butcher broke out of intergalactic prison and stole a mining ship>now he's headed to Earth>he just arrived and plans to terrorize the city of Japan>Super-Demon Man sensed Johnny's lifeforce and is flash-stepping to Tokyo>Super-Demon Man and Johnny exchange words of superiority>Johnny produces a massive cleaver from thin air and charges toward Super-Demon Man>Super-Demon Man flash-steps behind him>Johnny gives a wild reaction face>Super-Demon Man grins with a twinkle in his eye....

But don't you dare release a show with cute girls that goes something like this:

Konata and the rest of the cute track team crouch at the starting line>a starter pistol is fired>they dash off the line evenly>20M out Konata starts to take the lead>flashy background as Konata takes more and more of a lead>Konata wins the race and walks over to Tsukasa>Konata wipes the sweat from her face> Konata and her 3 friends are sitting around a lunch table at school>

Hmmm.... How is fighting an intergalactic criminal any more of a plot than school activities? Maybe more exciting for young boys that need lots of explosions and loud noises to entertain them but definitely not more of or a better plot. In fact, you can't have *more* or *less* of a plot that I'm aware of.