Author Topic: Supporting the Anime Industry  (Read 2969 times)

Offline ConsiderPhlebas

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2013, 07:01:55 PM »
It's not about supporting the Japanese industry, it's about supporting the US anime industry.
No, about this thread, go back and read OP's first post.

Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2013, 07:07:39 PM »
If the anime industry is dying in the US, it would be best to divert the focus of attention to the reason why. Because the way I see it, no industry dies just because people start downloading stuff.

Offline Saras

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2013, 07:20:03 PM »
If the anime industry is dying in the US, it would be best to divert the focus of attention to the reason why. Because the way I see it, no industry dies just because people start downloading stuff.

"Piracy is a service problem."

Still, I see good reason in supporting the North American/European anime industry. Also, the Japanese do get money from you buying anime in your own area, it's called a licensing fee. The larger it is, the more sense will it make for the Japanese to tailor shows to us and not just these guys


I certainly know which I'd rather.

Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2013, 08:48:36 PM »
While that may hold true, it is not what I meant.

What I meant is that both anime and manga publishers have severe issues selling their stuff to people outside a very niche, very hard-core fan base with specific tastes. While my findings are now completely based off my impression of the German market, I believe it may hold true for other markets out of Japan as well.

"Manga"
Did you know that a great variety of Manga dealing with more adult (no, I do not mean this in a sexual way) topics are not marketed as such? The works of manga-ka such as Jiro Taniguchi, Osamu Tezuka and Keiji Nakazawa are not sold under the "manga" label, but are labeled "graphic novel". While it is true that a great many of their stories can be placed en par with some excellent novels of the post-WWII-era, this is merely a political expression, hollow in itself, but it is also a daunting necessity. Most "manga" readers shun the works delivered by these authors, because they're "boring real life stuff" (if you remember my thread about escapism, yes, that is where I'm coming from), but at the same time, "graphic novel" readers shun manga, because they're "crap". Why is that? For instance, I believe it stems from many manga here being marketed towards girls age 12-17 (rough estimate), meaning we get to see a boatload of yaoi and second-rate shoujo manga (something that breaks my heart as a lover of shoujo manga), some shounen (mainly Jump/"Battle-shounen" stuff) and – a little on the sidelines – some seinen and jousei. (We also started getting Yuri stuff recently... good Yuri stuff at that too) Another fallacy is deeply rooted in the fact that "Manga" was marketed as a simple pastime as there was a point in time when the medium was all about entertainment. And while I think this is something legit to do, it is also selling the medium short – especially when (at least from my perspective) some manga that were great entertainment also had at least some redeeming value (one of my favourite examples for this is Love Hina... I read that on the brink of my twentieth birthday and I could appreciate it a lot (still do) because I could to some extent identify with the characters's dilemmas), but this was diminished under the quick superficial glances at bishounen and bishoujo.

"Anime"
Anime too, has suffered from trying too hard to be just entertainment. While some of the anime that I like don't necessarily reflect the concept of having "redeeming value", they are powerful stories, written in a manner that is highly engaging or are just plain pastime, but made in such a fun way that it is not hard for me to express my love for them (these are mainly Yonkoma and SoL anime, such as Working!!, K-On, Acchi Kocchi, Hidamari Sketch or Lucky Star). But, the anime that has come out here recently is neither. We recently had a wave of dull, repetitive stuff with flat characters and not-so-flat chests. And there I was, thinking, that after the "death" of action-oriented shounen anime, there would come the time of things like Kaiba, Penguindrum, Nodame Cantabile and the like. Oh, how wrong was I. However, the problem is that no one would actually advertise these series. Even at the peak of the anime boom in Germany (which was around 2003, with three of my all-time favourites – Noir, Escaflowne and Cowboy Bebop – being on air), anime that wasn't shounen (also censored to the point of being bloody nonsensical) was restricted to nighttime blocks. Great idea.

So, what would I tell the anime and manga industry to do? TTbh... some of these can be done by us fans as well.

1. Emphasize variety. Do get the message out that there is more to "Manga" and "Anime" than just hot dudes kissing or girls screaming when their chest is exposed. Even some of the die-hard escapists might try that stuff out if they see they can hook up other people with the medium through that.

2. Advertise. You can't sell anything if the people out there know squat about the existence of your products. Also, choose your channels for advertisement carefully. A more culturally-oriented TV station is the wrong place to air K-On, as you should better not air something like Nodame Cantabile on a network that is known for over-the-top comedy. Or if you don't want to air things, at least offer the chance to preview on your website or such. No one buys things as expensive as anime DVD and BD on good faith.

3. Make good products. People will buy your stuff if you can give them something worth their money. It is legit to offer single-disc boxes, but bring out boxes with complete or halfway complete series as soon as you can. Also, make these worth owning too. It just doesn't feel good when you want to buy a complete series to save space only to find out that you just bought four full-size boxes in a rather cheap carton box. And please: Invest in good dubs. It is so worth your money.

4. Get the stuff out quickly. Try licensing something that might pique your viewer's interest while it's still airing and bring it to your target destination during that period or shortly thereafter. The fresher it is, the better. All-time classics may be an exception.

5. Emphasize quality. No one needs the umptillionth generic high school action harem comedy series, when there is something truly awesome on the market just waiting to be brought over. Also, pay attention to which master you are given, even if it may piss off your business partner in Japan. TV masters are a definitive no-go, unless they offer something the DVD/BD master does not have (like in the case with Haruhi Suzumiya no Yuutsu)

(6. Offer streaming. This comes directly from No. 4, but I can see some issues here in terms of the international market, as the attitude towards streaming is very different in Europe and the US. Also, us Europeans cannot access US stuff. Which sucks.)

Anything you might want to add?

Offline LillyTown

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2013, 08:57:27 PM »
I would subscribe to CR, since the majority of airing anime are streamed at roughly the same time nowadays anyway, and the translation quality is usually pretty decent (a lot of their staff are ex-fansubbers, after all). But the video is terrible (seriously, one look at their 1080p preview put me off immediately), and I much prefer having actual files saved to my computer which I can watch any time I want, without having to worry about having an internet connection, and which I can copy to my phone to watch while travelling, or do whatever I want with.

If CR could achieve equivalent quality to fansubbers in all aspects, and were able to provide offline downloads (never gonna happen - which also means good quality won't happen, since fansub quality is too high bitrate to easily stream for most people), then I'd subscribe in an instant. But they don't, so I won't.

This is exactly what I was gonna say, other than the bit about watching on my phone. I draw the line at listening to music or watching quick videos I'm 'texted', I'll wait till I get home to watch a quality bdrip. Never seen any streaming video of decent quality, youtube/crunchyroll/netflix are all junk. I don't understand how people can watch that **** let alone go on about how great it is!  ???

Also, to all the moe haters: people DO care about moe/loli/ecchi/whatever shows. Maybe you don't, a lot of people do. Moe character designs are a big part of why I watch what I watch, without cute little girls I don't think I'd care too much for Lucky Star, Nanoha, PreCure, K-On, etc. I guess some of you prefer gorillas or nancyboys in your anime???
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Offline flyawave

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2013, 09:22:57 PM »
Anything you might want to add?

well you covered all the bases, I would however like to add...

ESCAFLOWNE AND COWBOY BEBOP ARE INCREDIBLE. They were on at around the same time in the UK as they were for you... with the same problem of late night airings/censorship etc.

As for the steady decline in quality... I will be honest a bit of moe here and there is great, but the sheer shitstorm of moe-shit now-a-days is just horrendous. That, coupled with retarded amounts of "fan service" (Truly a disservice to this fan,) and giant jelly boobs just... sends off a bad vibe. Picture sums it up
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 09:25:41 PM by flyawave »
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Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2013, 09:41:19 PM »
The term "fan service" in and of itself is stupid the way it is utilized right now. "Fan service" to me is something like the scene in Super Mario RPG where Samus is sleeping in a bed and when you talk to her she demands you let her sleep because she's preparing for a battle with the space pirates.  ;D Not pantyshots.

@LillyTown: Oh boy... as much as I too don't mind moe, it's just plainly overdone these days. The shows you mentioned are actually good stuff with somewhat interesting plots (only concerning Precure and Nanoha) or characters (K-On's characters are pretty well-made), but jeeves... watching anime just for the sake of cute girls... nah, thanks. No amount of cutesy can excuse for generic characters and/or a shitty plot.

Offline LillyTown

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2013, 11:22:15 PM »

@LillyTown: Oh boy... as much as I too don't mind moe, it's just plainly overdone these days. The shows you mentioned are actually good stuff with somewhat interesting plots (only concerning Precure and Nanoha) or characters (K-On's characters are pretty well-made), but jeeves... watching anime just for the sake of cute girls... nah, thanks. No amount of cutesy can excuse for generic characters and/or a shitty plot.
There's plenty of shows with little to no emphasis on moe, I don't see a few 'moe shows' here and there as a problem. Any character is gonna be either generic or pandering, it's all been done before. Even shows espoused as being unique or different usually just throw some twist on a formula; Nanoha puts magical girl themes in a shounen show or vise versa, however you wanna look at it. Madoka puts a dark and 'realistic' spin on a magical girl show. It's like you've had peanut butter and you've had jelly.... now try a peanut butter and jelly sandwich!
Anyway, there's no show that consists of just pure, concentrated moe with no plot and you can only judge a plot subjectively or objectively by sales/popularity. I know a lot of people don't like slice-of-life shows and call that a 'shit plot' or 'no plot' but I like 'em and clearly a lot of people do. It comes down to different tastes; some people prefer vanilla to chocolate and wouldn't it be foolish to say vanilla is a lesser flavor?
Now what IS fact is that attractive characters are more likeable and sell better. Cute characters clearly aren't right for every show but they do improve some. You seem to like Nanoha and PreCure; wouldn't those shows suck if they used unattractive characters? By the same token, wouldn't Ninja Scroll or Berserk, etc. be junk if they used moe girls?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 03:21:05 AM by LillyTown »
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Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2013, 11:39:44 PM »
Are you guys just happy with the media itself altered or unaltered? Or do you like excellent quality type versions with extra media and materials within your purchase?

Unaltered, or one can do the math himself since it's his money/want.


tl;dr

Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2013, 04:53:16 AM »
@LillyTown: By "generic characters and shitty plot" I was (more or less) concentrating on what I called
Quote
the umptillionth generic high school action harem comedy series
and really... what these are doing is just not good. Look at any in first episode or even the intro of such a series and if you look at the characters – especially the female ones – you can pretty much tell who fits which stereotype (tsundere etc.) and quite frankly, it is not a good sign for the plot either because these characters are very likely to be built around that trait and then nothing else or you get to hear a shit ton of backstory because otherwise they can't make them stand out. Also, in these stories, the plot is mainly an excuse for the creator to bring a bland harem story in which the actual plot is overshadowed by one question alone: "Who does the main character end up with?"

Now I do agree with you that you can't work without these stereotypical characters to a certain extent and that many plots have already been done before, if you boil it down to the most basic level. And I'm actually pretty much OK with that. BUT. Even with these, it is entirely possible to create an immersive experience that doesn't leave the viewer thinking: "Wow, this is boring". K-On does this very well. Its characters are pretty much stereotypical, but here, it does not make them boring, since – as a matter of fact – none of them are complete anime cliché characters. There's a bit of these clichés in there, but never too much and the way they act is something that gives you a point of reference because you can relate to these characters either by reflecting on your own behaviour or that of people around you, be it consciously or subconsciously.

Also, yes, attractive characters are a selling point. But, I do not define "attractive" solely by looks, but also by how well they are executed. And if the latter is lacking, I stop caring. Heck, there are shows I dropped because they were lacking in that department. Because if I want just to look at some eye candy, I go to any anime image board like gelbooru, spend about half an hour there and then I have my fix of visual attractiveness. I don't need to waste six hours on a show just because the characters are good-looking.

Offline LillyTown

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2013, 03:15:21 PM »
@LillyTown: By "generic characters and shitty plot" I was (more or less) concentrating on what I called
Quote
the umptillionth generic high school action harem comedy series
and really... what these are doing is just not good. Look at any in first episode or even the intro of such a series and if you look at the characters – especially the female ones – you can pretty much tell who fits which stereotype (tsundere etc.) and quite frankly, it is not a good sign for the plot either because these characters are very likely to etc etc etc trimming for space
       I'm gonna just cut to the chase: I think you and a good majority of others think something has to be different or exciting or a 'surprise' to be worthy of existence or atleast your time. I don't feel that way; I'm fine with another 'high school action harem comedy' as long as it improves on some aspect of those that have come before it. Just as we've had a zillion Olympic high-jumpers and it's pretty much the same every year yet it's still exciting to see someone set a new record.
      Studios could start taking old shows and 'rebuilding' them a la Rebuild of Evangelion(I assume for the most part they just traced keyframes digitally with minor changes here n there??) to improve the art and I'd be thrilled.
       Also, there's a reason cliches are just that: because they 'work' well and people like them. I feel that holds true in all aspects of life, the most 'cliche' form of something is probably the 'best' in some way. I'm not saying I'm happy to sit around watching the same 4 high school harem shows that are really the same damn thing, all the time for years on end. I like a little variety as I get sick of anything if I do it non-stop, all the time.
          Finally, I don't think the masses care about how 'interesting' a main character is, so long as they're not an obvious cardboard cut-out(an 'archetype'). They WANT a cliche, likeable character, someone that they can sympathise with, someone they want to be. Why didn't they have an overweight, dark skinned, balding old man with a gambling problem and whittles laser guns from soapstone? That'd be interesting, no?
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Offline Anvh

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2013, 07:08:41 PM »
It might sound crazy but won't it be possible to actual license a production, or at least come to an legal agreement with the producers?

From what i read many won't mind paying for an anime download if they know the quality is good and that a fair share goes to the producers.

I found some figures here for the license fee. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115579-Court-Documents-Reveal-Anime-Licensing-Costs

Some are expensive but others seem really doable, like Air for example. $20,000 for the movie and $145,000 for the anime, so if all the power users would pay $0,40 for the movie and $2 for the anime you would have those officially licensed... Those are very reasonable numbers.

Best way would of course be to work without a minimum guarantee but with a high revenue share and pay per download, that way the cost and risk will be low for the ones offering the download. But I doubt that the producers want to do that... but if they don't have offers to license it internationally then what would they have to lose?

Anyone interesting to look into that?  ;)

Offline Lord of Fire

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2013, 08:03:16 PM »
It might sound crazy but won't it be possible to actual license a production, or at least come to an legal agreement with the producers?

From what i read many won't mind paying for an anime download if they know the quality is good and that a fair share goes to the producers.

I found some figures here for the license fee. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115579-Court-Documents-Reveal-Anime-Licensing-Costs

Some are expensive but others seem really doable, like Air for example. $20,000 for the movie and $145,000 for the anime, so if all the power users would pay $0,40 for the movie and $2 for the anime you would have those officially licensed... Those are very reasonable numbers.

Best way would of course be to work without a minimum guarantee but with a high revenue share and pay per download, that way the cost and risk will be low for the ones offering the download. But I doubt that the producers want to do that... but if they don't have offers to license it internationally then what would they have to lose?

Anyone interesting to look into that?  ;)

I can name several factors that will ensure this would never get off the ground anytime soon, if ever:

1) Language. You need to speak fluent Japanese and know how to talk in technical terms. You can be guaranteed that the Japanese production committees will want to deal in their own language, not yours.

2) Reputation. No way in hell will the production committees risk licensing their product to an unknown entity. After all, how can they be assured they get the royalties they're entitled to? And you'd need to keep them up-to-date with sales/stream/download stats, else you risk getting sued for fraud.

3) Connections. Just having the license is one thing, but if you want to release it to the public, you'll need someone to host your services (if you want streaming or even download to own), or know various international distributors if you're interested in home video releases. And what if people want your show dubbed? Do you know any dub studios you could turn to for that?

4) Money. You think the heft sum of money you paid for Extremely Popular Show X is all you need? Well, depending on how far you want to go releasing the anime, you'll need at least double that amount, probably even more. Assuming you're not Bill Gates or any other rich dude, where are you going to get the money from?

Offline jaybug

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2013, 12:50:42 AM »
I think it helps the industry albeit only to a small extent, by having people talk about their works here in this and other forums. If no one is talking about them, or only saying bad things about them, it isn't exactly inspiring new viewers to bother to watch any is it? Nor does it help if all you talk about seems to be only about what many people would think of as some form of deviation, or perversion.
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Offline Anvh

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2013, 01:21:47 PM »
I can name several factors that will ensure this would never get off the ground anytime soon, if ever:

1) Language. You need to speak fluent Japanese and know how to talk in technical terms. You can be guaranteed that the Japanese production committees will want to deal in their own language, not yours.

2) Reputation. No way in hell will the production committees risk licensing their product to an unknown entity. After all, how can they be assured they get the royalties they're entitled to? And you'd need to keep them up-to-date with sales/stream/download stats, else you risk getting sued for fraud.

3) Connections. Just having the license is one thing, but if you want to release it to the public, you'll need someone to host your services (if you want streaming or even download to own), or know various international distributors if you're interested in home video releases. And what if people want your show dubbed? Do you know any dub studios you could turn to for that?

4) Money. You think the heft sum of money you paid for Extremely Popular Show X is all you need? Well, depending on how far you want to go releasing the anime, you'll need at least double that amount, probably even more. Assuming you're not Bill Gates or any other rich dude, where are you going to get the money from?

1. if you want to at least appeal to the international market then i'm sure they have someone that can at least talk English and all legal documents can easily be translated so there should not be too much friction there. Or else i'm sure you can find a translator somewhere  ;)

2. that's a good point but not in a way you describe it. It's easy to log the amount of views and earnings per production that you service, that's not the problem.
Problem would be the representative value of the production, that need to be good for the company.

3. i think you missed the point there. Like i said in my comment, many here seem to indicate that they like fansub over any other production so that means a download solution with subs only. I don't know why you would want to complicate things with home video release while the whole market is currently moving to the internet. Sure you need a server but that's not a biggy this time and age. Also like you say in point 4 the amount of money you've is not large so the focus will be on the smaller productions, many of those currently aren't even released any way outside Japan so to have an "official/legal" release is already a big enough step into the right direction. So lets not talk about the amount of money and effort that goes into dubbing, it's simply not worth it investment wise and not the goal.

4. There are different kinds of agreements of course and no way you can start out with the most popular shows and why should you, those have a fairly good change to get picked up with the major studios already. The focus should be the on the smaller shows that otherwise would not be released outside of Japan. The production studios behind it should not see it as their main goal to get money from it and that would be a hard one to convince them off. Now those productions gets scan-lated so it's lost revenue. The idea is to turn those scan-lations into legal products.
The production studio give the original files, scanlators have better file quality and maybe the option for additional support from the studio (maybe...) so you get a better product.
The money earned is dived into the license fee (per download if it can and make the durations short with automatic renewal), part goes to the scanlators for their effort, then the server cost and any other management cost you might have (translators, lawyers, accounted, ect.)

The idea is not to make a company, that's gets too complicated and their are too many interests. You want to connect the producers and the scan-lators so that the fans have a better product and a way to support the producers. This will not work with major productions indeed but if you start out small and create a lot of goodwill and thrust you might come quite far if you proof that the concept work.
Best way to start might be to contact a manga artist to translate their one-shots which have little risks involve.

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2013, 02:18:09 PM »
Oh it's this thread again? Ha.

Next on the list: Kill la Kill BDs from Japan.


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Online Tiffanys

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2013, 03:30:13 PM »
I replied to this ages ago but I'll just say that I don't "support" the anime industry for the same reason I don't support the movie or music industry. Key reason? The price is unreasonable.

1. The price is unreasonable.
2. They aren't offering a service that I want.
3. The product isn't in the format that I want.
4. It isn't convenient.

I wrote a blog about this nearly a year ago.

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Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2013, 11:04:27 PM »
Yep, the MAFIAA is a freaking joke.

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2013, 11:44:06 PM »
Tiff, you make a lot more money than me. I know that for sure. What the fuck do you do with your money, if I may ask? Besides saving it.


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Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: Supporting the Anime Industry
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2013, 11:50:27 PM »
Buying other stuff, obviously.