Author Topic: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone  (Read 10389 times)

Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #140 on: August 07, 2013, 12:09:26 PM »
You keep deluding yourself with the price, which renders your entire point moot. You can't compare prices of a pure OEM phone against a network-provided phone sold on contract, bundled with all kinds of weird software, and then locked to the network.

There is no smartphone of the Edge's estimated caliber at a price that low (the Nexus 4 is closer to $500), nor is there a smartphone of the same price that even begins to compare in specs.

Whether or not the phone itself will actually be worth the amount they're asking for is a different story, and I don't disagree that it seems like a bit much, but you can't argue the point based on a false price you give to an alternative.

As for that businessman asking for a spare monitor, in the future something like that may very well be as common sense as asking to use someone's computer or laptop today (which in turn would have been absurd a few years ago), if Canonical has the right idea of what the future holds. They're trying to build something that will move technology forward, so stop comparing it with what we do here and now.

Offline sawakosadako

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #141 on: August 07, 2013, 12:46:06 PM »
look at it like this, they're targeting a non existing market between phone and tablet/laptop usage case, its not specific enough to be worth anything.
Yeah you could say they're trying to create a new market.

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at $800 you could afford a $600 laptop and a $200 nexus, you get a vastly superior setup for the same price. you don't encounter docking problems on virtually every place you'd go to, be it on top of a mountain or under the sea.
approximately 90% of businessmen do their work at home or on-the-go, during transport to be more specific, on-site they only present data.
how do you think a client react if the businessman asks "do you have a spare monitor with you? i didn't bring one myself", what happens if the client doesn't have one? the meeting is cancelled?
It's like saying there's no point to have a device with a wi-fi since there's less wi-fi hotspot in the past. This kind of thing will solves by itself if the idea proves to be a good thing.

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to point out, theres 10" notebooks with decent specs for even heavy-workloads in it, a few of them has started going below $400 as well, with such a competition which do you think businessmen will go with? a phone that risks uselessness on some occasions, or a $400-less investment with higher usability to maximize usage scenarios?
Ubuntu Touch is not just about the convergence story. It's still a phone. And it's still going to be released no matter what on an OEM device priced most likely less than $800 in the future. While for the edge it's only for the enthusiastic. First of all I wouldn't expect any businessmen would buy this, not unless he's an enthusiastic. But I think they could buy this when Ubuntu Touch is on an OEM device since it's going to be less expensive. (Clarification: respond to number 3 is about Ubuntu Touch [ie, the commercial phone] not Ubuntu Edge, so it kinda conflicts to what I said here.)

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do note that a phone's processor wouldn't be enough to crunch 3D rendering, nor having it do other heavy-workloads, they'll end up having another unit for doing the heavy stuff potentially its $800+$???.
Are you talking about 3d real-time rendering or not? If it isn't. Hell I wouldn't even do it on a high-end desktop. I'd rather do it on a farm it's just not worth it.
About real-time rendering, have seen the video I posted above? What do you think about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJivWTHItjM

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from a businessmen's view, you'd see them wanting less investment with maximum profitability, so which of the two maximizes profitability?
you're deluding yourself to make it look worth it, think about it.
I'm not. I'm an environmentalist. I don't just buy device because it's the new thing. But then again maybe I am. Because I still want it to succeed since it would help Ubuntu Touch a lot if they do succeed. And I want Ubuntu Touch to succeed.

Edit:
@Freedom Kira: You're supporting this right? I just found this links. If you got some idea about the campaign, go to the blog and then the reddit thread below.
http://mhall119.com/2013/08/getting-through-the-trough-and-closer-to-the-edge-together/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/1jqyas/submit_your_ubuntu_edge_campaign_perk_ideas_here/
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 01:04:37 PM by sawakosadako »
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Offline kitamesume

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #142 on: August 07, 2013, 01:09:52 PM »
You keep deluding yourself with the price, which renders your entire point moot. You can't compare prices of a pure OEM phone against a network-provided phone sold on contract, bundled with all kinds of weird software, and then locked to the network.

There is no smartphone of the Edge's estimated caliber at a price that low (the Nexus 4 is closer to $500), nor is there a smartphone of the same price that even begins to compare in specs.

Whether or not the phone itself will actually be worth the amount they're asking for is a different story, and I don't disagree that it seems like a bit much, but you can't argue the point based on a false price you give to an alternative.
yeah you're right the nexus 4 was at $400, i dunno why but i had the nexus7's price on my head when i thought of nexus4, weird.
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-Google-Nexus-Android-Tablet/dp/B00DB3SH2G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375883738&sr=8-1&keywords=nexus
http://www.amazon.com/LG-Unlocked-International-Version-Warranty/dp/B00ABPKHH0/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1375883738&sr=8-5&keywords=nexus

As for that businessman asking for a spare monitor, in the future something like that may very well be as common sense as asking to use someone's computer or laptop today (which in turn would have been absurd a few years ago), if Canonical has the right idea of what the future holds. They're trying to build something that will move technology forward, so stop comparing it with what we do here and now.
how far in the future are we talking about? how about just going with the flow and only start there when things are already available? wouldn't things cost considerably less by then?
its like buying a DDR4 ram now for $800 when it'll take about a year before you can practically use it, by then the same type of ram would've cost half or even less, what did you aim to gain from buying again?
i mean, i doubt starbucks would start having docking stations by 2015, nor do i think most clients would have a docking station too, unless they're considerably rich and their establishment requires them to have it.

considering by next year there should be i5-type convertibles hitting the market at sub $500 prices, even atom silvermont type tablets have an estimated price of sub $200.
so yeah, you won't loose anything if Edge fails, by the time docking stations are a mandatory facility then you could say that dockable phones would be worth a try, but now or next year it isn't.

edit: by Q1-2015 broadwell at 14nm should start to step at the realm of phones, TDPs of haswell already started hitting sub 8watts, broadwell's die-shrink should make it a reality, a high performance phone i mean, then docking phones are practical.
its also conflicting though, by 2014 google-glass would be available throughout the global market, i'd estimate by 2015 there'll be a much more superior product that'll have a much more practical use for such device.



Are you talking about 3d real-time rendering or not? If it isn't. Hell I wouldn't even do it on a high-end desktop. I'd rather do it on a farm it's just not worth it.
About real-time rendering, have seen the video I posted above? What do you think about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJivWTHItjM
either, and well 3d non-realtime rendering depends on how big of a project are you trying to render, regardless of the case its time-bound.
the slowest processor can render it at a snail's phase, i'd imagine it taking a day or more to finish. for a laptop with capable specs, it'd take around a few hours.

I'm not. I'm an environmentalist. I don't just buy device because it's the new thing. But then again maybe I am. Because I still want it to succeed since it would help Ubuntu Touch a lot if they do succeed. And I want Ubuntu Touch to succeed.
you don't have to pay anything to get ubuntu touch to succeed, try visiting their forums since you'll see there the communities that're developing ubuntu, ubuntu forums i mean.



edit: speaking of which, Edge's situation is like Gaming Laptop's situation 10years ago.
"why game on a laptop thats 3x more expensive than a desktop"
or simply put, gaming on a laptop wasn't practical at that time.

the laptops were slow, you needed $2K laptops to game at some reasonable settings.
while it takes only a $800 desktop to game at high-max settings.

it took the market 4years to start mitigating the difference in price, $1K laptop about 6years ago were decent enough to play at good settings(GeForce 9800M GS or GeForce 9800M GT).
the demand was there so it aided the progress by quite a lot, but only by around 2010 did the manufacturers took gaming laptops seriously(GeForce GTS 250M to GeForce GTX 280M).


the same thing applies to Edge, hardware have yet to catch up both in terms of price and practicality.
NAND flash is still too expensive to scale up to 128GB at the moment(uSD card of 128GB costs about $150).
RAM density isn't practical yet to squeeze 4GB on such a small phone(they'll need to put four 8Gbit chips in it[highest capacity available at the moment, used on 16GB sticks], that amount of die wont fit in the PCB).
CPU performance and power efficiency isn't enough to push a positive result on such a constricting envelope.
screens aren't developed enough for efficient mass-production of low-cost highquality screens(they only just started doing so).
even so pushing for $800 on a whim isn't practical either, we all agree to this anyway.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 02:11:03 PM by kitamesume »

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Offline Saras

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #143 on: August 07, 2013, 10:06:11 PM »
5) too much vague specifications and answers.

Oh please, you can't hold that against them. It's not specific, because they don't know what they'll get. If they put down todays hardware, it'd be painfully out of date by the time the system is out. None of the engineers for products like this know the specific details. They know the price and what the system could handle tdp/size...etc wise. They've no idea as to what it is that they're going to get in the end.

Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #144 on: August 07, 2013, 10:26:34 PM »
how far in the future are we talking about? how about just going with the flow and only start there when things are already available? wouldn't things cost considerably less by then?
its like buying a DDR4 ram now for $800 when it'll take about a year before you can practically use it, by then the same type of ram would've cost half or even less, what did you aim to gain from buying again?
i mean, i doubt starbucks would start having docking stations by 2015, nor do i think most clients would have a docking station too, unless they're considerably rich and their establishment requires them to have it.

How is anyone supposed to know how far in the future Canonical's vision should happen? It could be anywhere from 1 to 50 years. But they seem to be pushing for earlier rather than later.

Edit:
@Freedom Kira: You're supporting this right? I just found this links. If you got some idea about the campaign, go to the blog and then the reddit thread below.
http://mhall119.com/2013/08/getting-through-the-trough-and-closer-to-the-edge-together/
http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/1jqyas/submit_your_ubuntu_edge_campaign_perk_ideas_here/

I am, yeah, since I managed to get an earlier, lighter price. I receive updates from Canonical too because I'm a backer. Here's the latest:

Quote
Bloomberg bets big on the Ubuntu Edge
The record-breaking Ubuntu Edge crowdfunding campaign has its first major corporate backer, Bloomberg LP.

Bloomberg, the financial information, analytics and news leader, pledged $80,000 towards the campaign in exchange for the Enterprise 100 perk, which includes a batch of 100 Ubuntu Edge devices and access to a range of Canonical workshops and technical support bringing Ubuntu for Android into the workplace.

"Bloomberg supports open innovation and initiatives, such as Ubuntu Edge, that align with our software development and business priorities," said Shawn Edwards, Chief Technology Officer at Bloomberg LP. "With this investment, Bloomberg developers will contribute to an open technology initiative that could benefit our clients and have a powerful impact on the future of mobile computing."

"Bloomberg's developers are already designing and building software for advanced devices because our clients demand a seamless experience from the desktop to the mobile platform," said Justin Erenkrantz, Head of Web Architecture, a division of Bloomberg LP's CTO Office. "Ubuntu's goal to offer a single-device solution for enterprise convergence and mobility is an exciting prospect and one that complements our vision for open development on the mobile platform."

The Ubuntu Edge campaign has already exceeded crowdfunding records -- it raised $2 million in the first eight hours -- and support from such a high-profile company is a boost for us and other backers looking to get their hands on the world’s first truly converged computing device.

The Ubuntu Edge will enter production for delivery in May 2014, if $32 million is raised before 11:59pm PT on August 21. It’s available exclusively via Indiegogo, and won’t be available to buy at retail. http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge

Awfully optimistic, aren't they? Even with that 80K, they've been stuck at the 8M mark for a couple days.

Offline kitamesume

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #145 on: August 08, 2013, 02:26:01 AM »
5) too much vague specifications and answers.

Oh please, you can't hold that against them. It's not specific, because they don't know what they'll get. If they put down todays hardware, it'd be painfully out of date by the time the system is out. None of the engineers for products like this know the specific details. They know the price and what the system could handle tdp/size...etc wise. They've no idea as to what it is that they're going to get in the end.
thats why they're failing though, vagueness won't attract customers, i mean when someone ask you to put a down-payment of $800 for something they said "it'll be the best there is" i doubt you would though?

in comparison, if they did their math before they pulled this off, even if they're going after the best there is they wouldn't be needing an average of $775 ($600~$830 to be precise).
by math i mean running stats on how fast can prices drop and how far can technology progress, if they did they'd know they only needed $600~$700 and thats even pushing it high.

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Offline zherok

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #146 on: August 08, 2013, 07:30:05 AM »
I just wonder if there's currently a market for crowd funding devices that go for a minimum of $725 dollars. We can speculate about vagueness and the like, but they still started with a campaign that needed a minimum of 40,000 backers paying at $800. That's a lot of people for even really successful campaigns, none of which even approach the cost of the Edge.

Offline Gh0st93

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Offline zherok

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #148 on: August 08, 2013, 07:47:47 AM »
Welp, given they've got all of one pledge at the bulk 100 unit tier, seems like that benefit didn't pan out much.

Offline Gh0st93

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #149 on: August 08, 2013, 07:53:07 AM »
Welp, given they've got all of one pledge at the bulk 100 unit tier, seems like that benefit didn't pan out much.
I wouldn't say that exactly even 1 pledge is $80,000. But as far as if it was in hopes of massive numbers of pledges well then yeah.
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Offline zherok

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #150 on: August 08, 2013, 08:10:32 AM »
Well, I doubt the market is there to crowd fund something so expensive in the first place, but I think Kickstarter's greater popularity would have made up the $80,000 difference. Bloomberg also backed the campaign fairly late, so could be backing it purely for the publicity; it's still gonna fail either way.

Offline sawakosadako

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #151 on: August 08, 2013, 10:50:25 AM »
either, and well 3d non-realtime rendering depends on how big of a project are you trying to render, regardless of the case its time-bound.
the slowest processor can render it at a snail's phase, i'd imagine it taking a day or more to finish. for a laptop with capable specs, it'd take around a few hours.
That's why the big guys always use pixar's renderman. it's effective enough to use multiple old processors with a low RAM on their farm.

Quote
Bloomberg bets big on the Ubuntu Edge
The record-breaking Ubuntu Edge crowdfunding campaign has its first major corporate backer, Bloomberg LP.

Bloomberg, the financial information, analytics and news leader, pledged $80,000 towards the campaign in exchange for the Enterprise 100 perk, which includes a batch of 100 Ubuntu Edge devices and access to a range of Canonical workshops and technical support bringing Ubuntu for Android into the workplace.

"Bloomberg supports open innovation and initiatives, such as Ubuntu Edge, that align with our software development and business priorities," said Shawn Edwards, Chief Technology Officer at Bloomberg LP. "With this investment, Bloomberg developers will contribute to an open technology initiative that could benefit our clients and have a powerful impact on the future of mobile computing."

"Bloomberg's developers are already designing and building software for advanced devices because our clients demand a seamless experience from the desktop to the mobile platform," said Justin Erenkrantz, Head of Web Architecture, a division of Bloomberg LP's CTO Office. "Ubuntu's goal to offer a single-device solution for enterprise convergence and mobility is an exciting prospect and one that complements our vision for open development on the mobile platform."

The Ubuntu Edge campaign has already exceeded crowdfunding records -- it raised $2 million in the first eight hours -- and support from such a high-profile company is a boost for us and other backers looking to get their hands on the world’s first truly converged computing device.

The Ubuntu Edge will enter production for delivery in May 2014, if $32 million is raised before 11:59pm PT on August 21. It’s available exclusively via Indiegogo, and won’t be available to buy at retail. http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge

Awfully optimistic, aren't they? Even with that 80K, they've been stuck at the 8M mark for a couple days.
Looks like my guess about day-trader interested in this is correct. Hope this could be a good publicity. I wonder if they mention about this on Bloomberg, I hope they do.


Update:

Looks like the game is on. They dropped the price to $695.
Quote
Ubuntu Edge now $695, thanks to major industry backing

With 14 days to go, it’s time for our biggest announcement yet. From now until the end of the campaign, we’re fixing the price of the Ubuntu Edge at $695! No limited quantities, no more price changes. You wanted a more affordable Edge, and now you’ve got it.

How are we able to do this? Mainly thanks to all of you. The huge support the Ubuntu Edge has been receiving from all corners of the world has really sent a message to the mobile industry -- and that message has been received loud and clear.

Yesterday we announced that Bloomberg LP has snapped up the first of the $80,000 Enterprise bundles, and we expect more businesses to follow suit. To make it even more appealing, we’ve raised the number of phones included in the bundle from 100 to 115.

Even better, since the campaign started breaking records on day one, we’ve been negotiating with several major component suppliers who are keen to see the Edge reach its goal and drive the adoption of new mobile technologies. This is one of the key benefits of keeping some of the core specifications open: as a result of these negotiations, we can now produce the same state-of-the-art device for less than we originally estimated.

Edge for less

So of course we’re passing those savings on to you. There’s now a single unlimited $695 Ubuntu Edge perk, which comes with a year’s subscription to LastPass Premium and a place on the Founders page. At the end of the campaign, anyone who’s already pledged more than $695 for the phone will be offered a refund of the difference.

There will be no further price reductions, and we must reiterate that the Ubuntu Edge is exclusive to Indiegogo. It will not be available to buy anywhere outside of this campaign, even at launch.

The target is still $32 million, so we will need to ship a few more phones at $695 than we would at a higher price, but we believe we can do it. We have two weeks, and we have the best community out there, so let’s get to work: share this news, get the word out, and let’s get the Ubuntu Edge made!

The Ubuntu Edge team
Lets see where this rolling.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 11:56:39 AM by sawakosadako »
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Offline Xycolian2332

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #152 on: August 08, 2013, 01:24:49 PM »
will the people who funded them at the higher price be refunded the difference?

Offline Gh0st93

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #153 on: August 08, 2013, 01:46:54 PM »
In all honestly I would more then likely buy in if I just had the money laying around, My reasons aren't solely hardware based I really would like to see and Ubuntu phone. But I am hesitant of what could be the new standards by the release date. But this would be like the best iPod (storage capacity think classic)/iPhone(Build Quality and screen)/Ubuntu machine crossover device.
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Offline sawakosadako

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #154 on: August 08, 2013, 02:23:09 PM »
will the people who funded them at the higher price be refunded the difference?
Yeah the difference will be refunded.

In all honestly I would more then likely buy in if I just had the money laying around, My reasons aren't solely hardware based I really would like to see and Ubuntu phone. But I am hesitant of what could be the new standards by the release date. But this would be like the best iPod (storage capacity think classic)/iPhone(Build Quality and screen)/Ubuntu machine crossover device.
I don't get it what you mean about the new standard. If what you mean is whether or not Ubuntu Touch will gain market. I don't think it matters though, it still an Android phone you could always use that.
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Offline Gh0st93

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #155 on: August 08, 2013, 02:26:17 PM »
will the people who funded them at the higher price be refunded the difference?
Yeah the difference will be refunded.

In all honestly I would more then likely buy in if I just had the money laying around, My reasons aren't solely hardware based I really would like to see and Ubuntu phone. But I am hesitant of what could be the new standards by the release date. But this would be like the best iPod (storage capacity think classic)/iPhone(Build Quality and screen)/Ubuntu machine crossover device.
I don't get it what you mean about the new standard. If what you mean is whether or not Ubuntu Touch will gain market. I don't think it matters though, it still an Android phone you could always use that.
By standards I mean a baseline of the hardware used i.e. Quad core processor, 4GB ram and 128GB storage. There could be several phones out in the wild with these specs by then maybe even better.
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Offline Freedom Kira

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #156 on: August 09, 2013, 03:37:53 AM »
Looks like the game is on. They dropped the price to $695.
(click to show/hide)
Lets see where this rolling.

Looks like you're a backer too. If not, I'm kind of surprised because I thought only backers received updates.

I think they were at 8.9M last I checked, so this only boosted them up by 0.1M so far. Let's see how far this goes.

By standards I mean a baseline of the hardware used i.e. Quad core processor, 4GB ram and 128GB storage. There could be several phones out in the wild with these specs by then maybe even better.

You realize that they're aiming this to be cutting-edge when it's released, right? Not cutting-edge by today's standards? That's why the specs are vague in the first place. Obviously, the specs they gave are cutting-edge by today's standards, but they are not finalized by any means.

Sure, a few years later it won't be cutting-edge any longer, but that's a completely moot point to begin with, because there's pretty much nothing in technology that doesn't move from cutting-edge to bleeding-edge within 10 years.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 03:43:36 AM by Freedom Kira »

Offline Gh0st93

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #157 on: August 09, 2013, 10:33:05 AM »

You realize that they're aiming this to be cutting-edge when it's released, right? Not cutting-edge by today's standards? That's why the specs are vague in the first place. Obviously, the specs they gave are cutting-edge by today's standards, but they are not finalized by any means.

Sure, a few years later it won't be cutting-edge any longer, but that's a completely moot point to begin with, because there's pretty much nothing in technology that doesn't move from cutting-edge to bleeding-edge within 10 years.
Yes I am fully aware of that, What I'm saying is that this may not be the only phone on the "cutting-edge".
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Offline kitamesume

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #158 on: August 09, 2013, 10:58:17 AM »

You realize that they're aiming this to be cutting-edge when it's released, right? Not cutting-edge by today's standards? That's why the specs are vague in the first place. Obviously, the specs they gave are cutting-edge by today's standards, but they are not finalized by any means.

Sure, a few years later it won't be cutting-edge any longer, but that's a completely moot point to begin with, because there's pretty much nothing in technology that doesn't move from cutting-edge to bleeding-edge within 10 years.
Yes I am fully aware of that, What I'm saying is that this may not be the only phone on the "cutting-edge".
true, thats what they call competition, and Edge at it's price it ain't competing at all.
fund raising like these needs to stop being abused. :(

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Offline Gh0st93

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Re: $32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone
« Reply #159 on: August 09, 2013, 07:06:05 PM »

You realize that they're aiming this to be cutting-edge when it's released, right? Not cutting-edge by today's standards? That's why the specs are vague in the first place. Obviously, the specs they gave are cutting-edge by today's standards, but they are not finalized by any means.

Sure, a few years later it won't be cutting-edge any longer, but that's a completely moot point to begin with, because there's pretty much nothing in technology that doesn't move from cutting-edge to bleeding-edge within 10 years.
Yes I am fully aware of that, What I'm saying is that this may not be the only phone on the "cutting-edge".
true, thats what they call competition, and Edge at it's price it ain't competing at all.
fund raising like these needs to stop being abused. :(
I would agree, And honestly I do for the vast majority. But I would would really like to see Linux/Ubuntu get into the smartphone market, It would be really great plus that phones looks so nice.
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