$32 million Crowd Funding for Android/Ubuntu phone

[kitamesume]

I don't get your obsession with ARM. Nowhere is it mentioned that the phone will use an ARM processor.

what else is there to be used? handset-atom which isn't any faster than ARM? unless they manage to fit an i7 in there somehow?

do realize that theres nothing else on the table but a half-baked atom and a half-matured ARM.
only when silvermont finally gets released will there be something else.
even the current gen atom being used for handsets barely even compete with mid-tier ARM, the octa big.LITTLE ARM is leagues above it.
thats why theres so much hype on "slivermont baytrail", being 3x faster than current gen atom only being 30% faster than current ARM competition.

if you do it in math, if silvermont baytrail is 3x faster than current gen atom, and only 30% faster than current gen ARM, it means to say that current gen atom is only 43% of current gen ARM.
(43% x 3 = 130%)

edit: oh and for the record, even if they do fit in a baytrail-T in there its still slower than N2800, aka atom netbook.
but the sad part is that, baytrail-T's tdp is too large for a handset, merrifield(silvermont) will be the ones to be used for handsets, which is even more slower.

What remains to be seen, however, is how Silvermont performs in a smaller power envelope — namely, smartphones. Will Merrifield, which is a dual-core part that will probably be clocked slower than Bay Trail, be able to keep up with the latest SoCs from Qualcomm, Samsung, and Apple? I don’t think anyone doubts Intel’s potency when it comes to raw performance, but on the matter of performance-per-watt, the jury’s still very much out.

edit2: don't get me wrong, the lack of performance barely affects anything for "handset" purpose, but as a desktop? are you willing to go back using pentiumII performance? like for $800, seriously?

[sawakosadako]

I guess we're gonna have to see about it. But most likely we'll never know about it. Considering it's still stuck at 7 million at this moment.

[kitamesume]

the fact that they're still stuck up at $600~$830 makes me wonder why they're even trying, if they wanted to succeed they could've aimed for $500~$600 where undercutting competition always gives good results.

i dunno if they really suck at marketing and economics, while abusing these sites for funds, or just plain retarded.

in either case, whom ever wanted to try out an ubuntu platform are better off buying a $400 handset and rooting unbuntu in it, or better yet a hybrid tablet with a beefy specs(11" full HD + celeron to i5) which usually are priced at $800.

[Saras]

yeah, baytrail-T
theres a few tiers of baytrail. baytrail-T (tablet), baytrail-M (notebook), and baytrail-D (desktop).
the atom silvermont of phones though is merrifield, in due date till 2014.

as for baytrail vs arm - http://www.extremetech.com/computing/160320-intel-bay-trail-benchmark-appears-online-crushes-fastest-snapdragon-arm-soc-by-30

PS: Silvermont is the architecture name, baytrail is like a code name similar to i3, i5, i7.

Whether or not it's worth the price, I can't say. I don't think anyone can until the final specs are confirmed and we've actually seen it in action. But a large part of the draw is the one-off limited edition nature of it, so being slightly more expensive than an equivalent Samsung, HTC, etc is to be expected.

twice as expensive to be exact, for it's worth in comparison to flagship phones. lets not talk about nexus phones as everything looks stupidly expensive when anything is compared to it.

i dunno why they're trying to charge such a premium though(more than 60% profit, really now).
they don't even need that much R&D for ubuntu OS since everything is practically done already, nor do they need to develop hardware from scratch since all they need is to assemble them.
my guess is that they're abusing the project to jumpstart their production line without investing themselves.

FYI, the same features and costs don't apply to everyone. There's no way canonical could get any of the hardware at price points even reaching close to that of google or samsung. And even more so because they put a hard limit on the 40 000 run. You couldn't build me a Nexus 4 if I gave you 2 grand to do it and a part list.

2nd. R&D is required, even if you don't make the hardware.

3rd. It's not done already, nothing is anymore. If it were, we'd be stuck with Android 1.6, Ubuntu OS will require tweaking for decades to come.

[kitamesume]

thats why i'm saying "at it is, its not worth the price" get it?

the raw paper specs for it, even with a 40K unit run its still expensive at $830 a pop, hitting $32M for like what? even if the overall cost per unit to produce is higher due to finite batches its still expensive.
who in their right mind would buy an inferior product for almost twice it's price? well i guess apple and alienware buyers would but thats because they fancy the brand.
usually ubuntu users would be knowledgeable enough to root any phone to run ubuntu, why bother buying a pre-made one? you're taking the fun out of what ubuntu was made for.

[Saras]

thats why i'm saying "at it is, its not worth the price" get it?

the raw paper specs for it, even with a 40K unit run its still expensive at $830 a pop, hitting $32M for like what? even if the overall cost per unit to produce is higher due to finite batches its still expensive.
who in their right mind would buy an inferior product for almost twice it's price? well i guess apple and alienware buyers would but thats because they fancy the brand.
usually ubuntu users would be knowledgeable enough to root any phone to run ubuntu, why bother buying a pre-made one? you're taking the fun out of what ubuntu was made for.

Uh, no. Ubuntu is the "easy to use linux".

It's certainly not developed with hardware hackers and the like in mind. It's developed to be understood by the average person.

[mgz]

at this point it dont really matter i doubt any of us are buying one, and we will wait and see as the donors for it slow to a crawl

[kitamesume]

thats why i'm saying "at it is, its not worth the price" get it?

the raw paper specs for it, even with a 40K unit run its still expensive at $830 a pop, hitting $32M for like what? even if the overall cost per unit to produce is higher due to finite batches its still expensive.
who in their right mind would buy an inferior product for almost twice it's price? well i guess apple and alienware buyers would but thats because they fancy the brand.
usually ubuntu users would be knowledgeable enough to root any phone to run ubuntu, why bother buying a pre-made one? you're taking the fun out of what ubuntu was made for.

Uh, no. Ubuntu is the "easy to use linux".

It's certainly not developed with hardware hackers and the like in mind. It's developed to be understood by the average person.

i thought that was mint but ok.

[Freedom Kira]

what else is there to be used? handset-atom which isn't any faster than ARM? unless they manage to fit an i7 in there somehow?

-snip-

Have you noticed the release date for the Edge? All that talk about Silvermont is nice, but it'll be released long before the Edge is complete.

i thought that was mint but ok.

Maybe you should learn a little bit about the things you're spewing all this crap about before you actually spew the crap. Mint is built off of Ubuntu.

at this point it dont really matter i doubt any of us are buying one, and we will wait and see as the donors for it slow to a crawl

I hopped on, actually. $830 would have me hesitating, but $725 sounded about right to me.

[kitamesume]

what else is there to be used? handset-atom which isn't any faster than ARM? unless they manage to fit an i7 in there somehow?

-snip-

Have you noticed the release date for the Edge? All that talk about Silvermont is nice, but it'll be released long before the Edge is complete.

i thought that was mint but ok.

Maybe you should learn a little bit about the things you're spewing all this crap about before you actually spew the crap. Mint is built off of Ubuntu.

that would be an ideal case if intel were to develop something after silvermont just before the completion of Edge, in this case thats doubtfully from possible, which means only silvermont or a better ARM processor would be present by Q1 2014 which would be the start production of said Edge if it were to hit a go.

whats your point?
i was merely replying that "mint" is linux's friendly interface, much more friendlier than ubuntu btw.

this got me thinking, why are you arguing with me?

[sawakosadako]

Quick facts

 -    Exclusive to Indiegogo backers. The Edge will NOT be available to buy at launch.
 -    Specs to be finalised as late as possible to ensure the best available components.
 -    Dual-boots into Ubuntu mobile OS and Android; converts into a full desktop PC.
 -    Works with LTE and GSM networks, including Verizon and Sprint.
 -    Perks include all charges for US and UK, including VAT and delivery.
 -    Standard manufacturer warranty will apply once manufacturer is selected.
 -    Zero cost to backers if the campaign is unsuccessful.

There's an update. The second one makes the probability for silvermont inside edge is higher than before, I guess.

TBH, they should've fix the forum if they want this to make it for god sake.

[kitamesume]

Quick facts

 -    Exclusive to Indiegogo backers. The Edge will NOT be available to buy at launch.
 -    Specs to be finalised as late as possible to ensure the best available components.
 -    Dual-boots into Ubuntu mobile OS and Android; converts into a full desktop PC.
 -    Works with LTE and GSM networks, including Verizon and Sprint.
 -    Perks include all charges for US and UK, including VAT and delivery.
 -    Standard manufacturer warranty will apply once manufacturer is selected.
 -    Zero cost to backers if the campaign is unsuccessful.

There's an update. The second one makes the probability for silvermont inside edge is higher than before, I guess.

TBH, they should've fix the forum if they want this to make it for god sake.

the question is which silvermont are they considering to put in the phone? the closest possible silvermont that can compete against up coming big.LITTLE refresh is the 1.1Ghz baytrail-T quadcore.
but the 3W TDP will end up killing the phone's batterylife and temperature control(unless you can hold onto a phone that scorches over 60c).
merrifield would be practically inferior to most of ARM's A57 type processors, it may compete against current gen A15 but just about on-par.

the possibility of a latter atom type processor becoming available by Q1 2014 is next to impossible, theres not enough time for it.
in which case i can see a higher chance of ARM A57 type big.LITTLE octa being used as it'll have superior performance while keeping TDP portfolio small enough to fit a phone package.
edit: i forgot to mention that most of the big.LITTLE type processors present today doesn't fully support big.LITTLE MP, in a sense that they're only capable of running as quadcores only.

big.LITTLE MP
The most powerful use model of big.LITTLE is called MP and enables the use of all physical cores at the same time. Threads with high priority and/or computational intensity can in this case be allocated to the 'big' cores while threads with less priority or less computational intensity, such as background tasks, can be performed by the 'LITTLE' cores.

[sawakosadako]

big.LITTLE MP
The most powerful use model of big.LITTLE is called MP and enables the use of all physical cores at the same time. Threads with high priority and/or computational intensity can in this case be allocated to the 'big' cores while threads with less priority or less computational intensity, such as background tasks, can be performed by the 'LITTLE' cores.

This seems interesting. The edge could use the big core for the desktop while docked, and the little core for the phone core function during the desktop session. Is this strong enough to power up desktop?

PS: Btw, this thread is kinda weird, we're talking about the price, hardware, etc of a device that is probably not going to come into existence 

[Freedom Kira]

PS: Btw, this thread is kinda weird, we're talking about the price, hardware, etc of a device that is probably not going to come into existence 

It's been collecting a steady ~$1M per day so far. If they can keep the momentum going, they ought to reach the goal.

this got me thinking, why are you arguing with me?

I dunno. Could it possibly be because you're always talking shit about stuff you don't understand or about other people's stuff that aren't in line with what you're interested in? And FYI, Mint is no easier to use than Ubuntu. Maybe you should actually try using them.

And in case you haven't noticed, that attitude of yours has turned away big tech names around here, like Lupin and Kureshii. They used to post interesting things and meaningful replies on threads, but Lupin hasn't posted at all and Kureshii very sparingly ever since you showed up.

[Bob2004]

PS: Btw, this thread is kinda weird, we're talking about the price, hardware, etc of a device that is probably not going to come into existence 

It's been collecting a steady ~$1M per day so far. If they can keep the momentum going, they ought to reach the goal.

Yeah, if it doesn't slow down too much mid-campaign, it could well make it. It's already doing way better than most IndieGoGo campaigns - in my experience they do tend to attract notably less interest than Kickstarter, since it's a less popular site. Getting this much money though it is already an amazing feat in and of itself.

this got me thinking, why are you arguing with me?

I dunno. Could it possibly be because you're always talking shit about stuff you don't understand or about other people's stuff that aren't in line with what you're interested in? And FYI, Mint is no easier to use than Ubuntu. Maybe you should actually try using them.

And in case you haven't noticed, that attitude of yours has turned away big tech names around here, like Lupin and Kureshii. They used to post interesting things and meaningful replies on threads, but Lupin hasn't posted at all and Kureshii very sparingly ever since you showed up.

Indeed, it's certainly discouraging me from taking the time to post in threads like this one that I'm interested in - though I'm hardly a big tech name. It's extremely annoying.

[kitamesume]

oh so im a douche now, kay.

you guys only assume that, because instead of correcting stuffs you guys end up dissing it, it would be correct to view it with the douche being the other way around.

edit: stay neutral, its one way to keep a flame from becoming an inferno.

[Saras]

thats why i'm saying "at it is, its not worth the price" get it?

the raw paper specs for it, even with a 40K unit run its still expensive at $830 a pop, hitting $32M for like what? even if the overall cost per unit to produce is higher due to finite batches its still expensive.
who in their right mind would buy an inferior product for almost twice it's price? well i guess apple and alienware buyers would but thats because they fancy the brand.
usually ubuntu users would be knowledgeable enough to root any phone to run ubuntu, why bother buying a pre-made one? you're taking the fun out of what ubuntu was made for.

Uh, no. Ubuntu is the "easy to use linux".

It's certainly not developed with hardware hackers and the like in mind. It's developed to be understood by the average person.

i thought that was mint but ok.

Mint is a flavour of Ubuntu. The differences are fairly minor in practice and major in philosophy. Ubuntu believes in a "free" or just an open source OS, with giving you the option of running third party closed software only if you specifically desire it to. Mint is Ubuntu + closed software and the like out of the box. That's it.

And with my previous comment, I was denying, that they were getting a 60% profit margin cut, that you were implying based on googles hardware estimates. They aren't going to get anywhere near to that much profit.

And what concerns crowd funding, it's very unlikely to get financed. You basically need to get two thirds of the sum in the first 10 days, if you want it to succeed. As the rate of money betting tends to slow down over the time of the funding. With the last the ~18-28th day bringing little in. But I suppose, this could be a unique case, in it requiring a high premium for the bid. Making people far more cautious and thus extending the funding process down the line. But I wouldn't bet on it.

[halfelite]

They need to open back up the 725$ pledge and it would move again. I would put down 650/725$ but anything over that is to much. around the 600/700 they are still around a lot of the unlocked phone prices. The device principal has appeal,

[kitamesume]

thats why i'm saying "at it is, its not worth the price" get it?

the raw paper specs for it, even with a 40K unit run its still expensive at $830 a pop, hitting $32M for like what? even if the overall cost per unit to produce is higher due to finite batches its still expensive.
who in their right mind would buy an inferior product for almost twice it's price? well i guess apple and alienware buyers would but thats because they fancy the brand.
usually ubuntu users would be knowledgeable enough to root any phone to run ubuntu, why bother buying a pre-made one? you're taking the fun out of what ubuntu was made for.

Uh, no. Ubuntu is the "easy to use linux".

It's certainly not developed with hardware hackers and the like in mind. It's developed to be understood by the average person.

i thought that was mint but ok.

Mint is a flavour of Ubuntu. The differences are fairly minor in practice and major in philosophy. Ubuntu believes in a "free" or just an open source OS, with giving you the option of running third party closed software only if you specifically desire it to. Mint is Ubuntu + closed software and the like out of the box. That's it.

And with my previous comment, I was denying, that they were getting a 60% profit margin cut, that you were implying based on googles hardware estimates. They aren't going to get anywhere near to that much profit.

And what concerns crowd funding, it's very unlikely to get financed. You basically need to get two thirds of the sum in the first 10 days, if you want it to succeed. As the rate of money betting tends to slow down over the time of the funding. With the last the ~18-28th day bringing little in. But I suppose, this could be a unique case, in it requiring a high premium for the bid. Making people far more cautious and thus extending the funding process down the line. But I wouldn't bet on it.

well true, but Mint does have a friendlier approach, or maybe the gui is just much closer to windows.
http://lifehacker.com/5993297/ubuntu-vs-mint-which-linux-distro-is-better-for-beginners

(click to show/hide)

At first, the majority of my "test subjects" found Mint much easier to use. Finding their home folder was easy because it was right there on the desktop, while Ubuntu's dock made it a bit more difficult to figure out where their file manager was. Mint's menus were easy to use, so they could browse by category and find apps they had never heard of before (and guess their purpose). They found Ubuntu's Dash very confusing, since using the search bar wasn't their first instinct (and since they didn't always know what they were looking for). Ubuntu won when it came to installing new apps, though: everyone found the Software Center very easy to find and use, while most couldn't even figure out where to go in Mint.

However, while they found everything in Mint much quicker, about half of them said that they liked Ubuntu better when the experiment was over. Some of it was less intuitive, but once they realized how easy it was to search the Dash or add new items to their dock, they said they'd be more likely to install Ubuntu than Mint. This didn't apply to everyone, but it did surprise me that many liked Ubuntu's Dash once they learned how it was supposed to work.

Of those polled, the tech savvier users liked Mint better, while the less tech savvy users were more split, leaning toward Ubuntu once they learned the tricks of the trade.

Tech-Savvy Beginners: Go With Mint

If you're a tech head looking to try out Linux for the first time, I highly recommend Mint. It has a lot more room for customization than Ubuntu, so even if there are things you don't love about the interface, you can change them. Mint has also become very popular, so it has a forum full of users to help you take your first steps in learning all about Linux.

well, i wasn't explicitly saying its pure profit, rather after deducting parts cost you can see around 60% of the price goes to somewhere.
that hypothesis is either they're trying to build a factory from scratch which makes sense, or the funds goes to somewhere else, most likely the former.
it would've been possible to have some other manufacturer to batch manufacture the phones, it would've cut cost even more but with that much price tag i doubt they're planning like this.

the price-tag cap of $830 is certainly scaring potential buyers, because that price range is not a phone's domain, certainly not.

[Freedom Kira]

oh so im a douche now, kay.

you guys only assume that, because instead of correcting stuffs you guys end up dissing it, it would be correct to view it with the douche being the other way around.

edit: stay neutral, its one way to keep a flame from becoming an inferno.

No, it's not douchy. You sure have a way of twisting words and putting words into others' mouths, so to speak. Talking shit about things you don't understand is simply annoying and makes you one heck of a headache to talk to. And yes, it does look like you're talking shit about something if you're not talking at what it is but what you perceive it to be - ARM, for example, or the specs that you think are outperformed by today's devices. Stay neutral, indeed - if you're going to argue a stance, argue what's been presented, not what you think has been presented.

Yeah, if it doesn't slow down too much mid-campaign, it could well make it. It's already doing way better than most IndieGoGo campaigns - in my experience they do tend to attract notably less interest than Kickstarter, since it's a less popular site. Getting this much money though it is already an amazing feat in and of itself.

I'm kinda curious as to why they didn't use Kickstarter instead of IndieGoGo. They ought to be able to pick up more momentum on the former.

And what concerns crowd funding, it's very unlikely to get financed. You basically need to get two thirds of the sum in the first 10 days, if you want it to succeed. As the rate of money betting tends to slow down over the time of the funding. With the last the ~18-28th day bringing little in. But I suppose, this could be a unique case, in it requiring a high premium for the bid. Making people far more cautious and thus extending the funding process down the line. But I wouldn't bet on it.

I think so too, purely from intuition. You get all the trigger-happy people early on, but the longer people wait, the less likely they would end up buying it.

I hope Canonical has something interesting planned for the later days of the campaign, like revealing certain things that they haven't yet, which could kick up the momentum a bit again when they need it.

It'd be pretty cool if some CEOs decide that their companies need that batch of 100 Edges that they have a special for.