Author Topic: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?  (Read 4008 times)

Offline zherok

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2013, 08:31:55 AM »
What are you doing to use 32gb of RAM? It's certainly not games. They currently barely take advantage of 8gb. RAM usage among them isn't going to quadruple in two years, and certainly not require higher than that.

If you've got some exotic usage in mind maybe that'd justify it, but if it's only going to kick in when you stop using it as your main PC and start using it as a server, why not buy RAM then? I don't get the fixation on preparing for something nearly a decade down the line. It's not like you're saving money by buying more RAM now than you'll need.

Offline Pentium100

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2013, 08:57:59 AM »
What are you doing to use 32gb of RAM? It's certainly not games. They currently barely take advantage of 8gb. RAM usage among them isn't going to quadruple in two years, and certainly not require higher than that.

If you've got some exotic usage in mind maybe that'd justify it, but if it's only going to kick in when you stop using it as your main PC and start using it as a server, why not buy RAM then? I don't get the fixation on preparing for something nearly a decade down the line. It's not like you're saving money by buying more RAM now than you'll need.
I like keeping lots of application open. As it is now, I frequently hit the 3GB limit in my main PC even when not playing games.
8GB would be a bare minimum, 16GB probably OK for now until applications (or games) get greedier. 32GB max is a bit too low, for main PC in 5 years and especially a server in 5 years, so it means if I buy Core i7 now, I can use it as my main PC for now, but when I decide to upgrade it it will be a bad server.
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Offline zherok

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2013, 10:33:02 AM »
What do you plan on doing with your server that 32gb is inadequate?

Games don't really need 8gb unless you're at the high end now (though it's cheap enough that there's little reason not to have at least that much.) 16gb is more than future proofing for games, by the time you need more than that your other components will be hopelessly out of date. What's the point in having a ton of old outdated RAM by then?

With the most intensive games still usually being console ports, and the next gen only having 8gb to deal with max (and they too require a good chunk of their RAM to go towards system processes), it's unlikely there'll really be all that many games that will try to require more than what consoles are capable of. And you're still talking doubling that potential with 16gb.

It kinda sounds like your future hypothetical server is more important than the main PC usage you're planning on getting out of it now. Why spend so much now when all this ultra-high end stuff is just for your hand-me-down server later? I mean, if you really want to spend that money, go for it, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with your usage.

Online JoonasTo

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2013, 10:59:27 AM »
In regards to the memory issue, you should go for enough memory so you don't need a swap file and I'd even assign temp folders to ram, especially since you intend to keep it running for long. No reason to use the slow space from HDD or waste SSD write cycles on those when you've got a better option.

StarCraft 2 eats almost 6 GB of ram on 64-bit win 8 btw. Games like EU4, Rome2, or Forged Alliance Forever, Skyrim, Endless Space, etc modded do all benefit from ram over 8GB, even if they can't utilise over 8 or 16 by themselves.


Also, 100w a year is nothing, it amounts to 50 euros or so with the current average prices.

Really disappointed with you Joonas... Can't believe I'm going to have to quote myself now, you clearly did not read my posts.

Imagine you have a 100w lightbulb, that is left on permanently at the rate I posted earlier, the cost over the year would be £108.71

Current rates being in the north of England £0.1241/kwh and that is the CHEAPEST rate we can get here.

100w a year costs £108.71 = €129.73. And that is purely the rate that is being charged, it doesn't include peak/offpeak rates, standing charges, taxes or other costs, more than double your clearly guessed quote.

I'm going to be harsh now but next time Joonas, do a little research first so you have something to back up those figures you pulled out from your, well.... I wont got that far but I think you get the gist and the fact you think even €50 is trivial as well is also very disappointing to hear. That's food for a week, or a brand new game, or a full tank of petrol (well, that's stretching it).
Um, yeah, our AVERAGE rate is 6 cents(in a regular house/apartment with 3x25A). It does include taxes, transfer costs and it's from even charge electricity. I've got stats but seeing as they're in Finnish, d'oh, they wont be of much use to you.

Full tank of petrol is 85 euros assuming you've got a 50 liter tank btw. Foor for a week is 30 euros in Finland if you cook yourself and don't eat beef everyday, and brand new game is 40-60 euros depending on platform. So yeah, that's nothing assuming you make a normal living of 30k or so in a year.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 11:02:41 AM by JoonasTo »

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Online kitamesume

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2013, 12:50:46 PM »
So, any suggestions for an older AMD server-grade setup?
i'm not aware of any old AMD opterons that would be of value, the closest one thats cheap but decent would be the C32 based opterons.
to be particular dual C32 socket are cheaper than dual G34 socket, i'm pretty sure its inferior though.

($270) AMD Opteron 4280 - Valencia 8core
($290) ASUS KCMA-D8 - Dual Socket C32

it would be indeed a cheap and capable server, and theres room to expand for another CPU.

PS: if E3s supported dual-socket it would've changed everything though, dual E3-1230 V3 would slaughter anything at the same price point.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:52:35 PM by kitamesume »

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Offline Pentium100

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2013, 12:53:11 PM »
What do you plan on doing with your server that 32gb is inadequate?
Running virtual machines consumes RAM quickly. It's good that Linux can be made to work normally with 512MB or maybe even 384MB, but try running Windows 2008 or 2012 and you will run out of RAM fast.

And the main reason for a big fat server is that I won't need many tiny little servers (or big fat old servers).

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With the most intensive games still usually being console ports, and the next gen only having 8gb to deal with max (and they too require a good chunk of their RAM to go towards system processes), it's unlikely there'll really be all that many games that will try to require more than what consoles are capable of. And you're still talking doubling that potential with 16gb.
Game uses 8GB, Firefox uses 1.5GB, some other app uses 1GB and look, you are out of memory if you only have 8GB.

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It kinda sounds like your future hypothetical server is more important than the main PC usage you're planning on getting out of it now. Why spend so much now when all this ultra-high end stuff is just for your hand-me-down server later? I mean, if you really want to spend that money, go for it, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with your usage.

I may have written it inaccurately:

At first I wanted a really overpowered system that could last 7 years without upgrading the motherboard.
Then someone suggested me a small temporary system now, for a year. Then, a year later, upgrade to a really overpowered system (parts of which are not on market yet).

Now, in this case, the temporary system will spend more time being a server than a main PC, so I should be concerned about that use too. In this case buying an older AMD dual  CPU hardware would be better than brand new single CPU system. It will last the year as a main PC just OK and then it will be a good server.
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Offline Honemi

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #86 on: October 03, 2013, 03:08:44 PM »
Did I get it all?

AMD processors will have superior mulitasking performance not multithreaded performance. For pure performance, Intel still wins out in almost every price range. Games will be designed around 8 cores, but for computers, that means 8 threads. An i7 will not be inadequate to run these games thanks to Hyper-threading; Hyper-threading allows the i7 processor to handle more threads than it would normally would. kitamesume was not wrong when he (?) summarized this as allowing the processor to utilize more of its power.

The only real advantage AMD processors will have over an Intel equivalent is multitasking performance due to their sheer core count. Intel still beats comparable AMD processors in most every multithreaded task. If you need better multitasking, get an AMD; if you need more raw performance, get Intel. Games in general likes Intel processors a lot more than they do AMD's processors, and unfortunately for AMD, this is particularly true for CPU-bound games. AnandTech has released Part 2 of their 1440p CPU article. Tom's Hardware with StarCraft II which is another CPU-bound game, I believe. [H]ardOCP has some results, but because of the low resolution used, the results are a bit more exaggerated than it would be in real life. AMD processors are not really worth unless you're into mulitasking: their single thread performance is a joke, and their multithreaded performance is not so great either.

If you're going to be doing a lot of multitasking as you indicated you will be, then I recommend AMD. Their core count allows them better multitasking performance in exchange for Intel's general performance. Its a choice between good multitasking and performance in other words.

As for the RAM bit, I have a hard time imagining games using more than 6GB of RAM at this point in time, and I believe even in a few years 32GB will be overkill for gamers. I'm pretty sure that RAM usage is tied to VRAM usage as in the less VRAM you have the more RAM is used. I'm not too sure about that though. Maybe people more knowledgeable on the subject can educate me.

I hope that helps. It's kind of hard to collect information about the CPU's effect on performance. It isn't a secret that most games benefit from a beefier graphics card instead of a beefier central processor, so major review sites tend to focus on the former to the exclusion of the latter.

edit: In the article I linked to earlier in the thread, it also showed that AMD had trouble competing with its Intel counterpart on most tasks. It could still probably multitask better, but the multithreaded performance crown still goes to Intel. AMD's strength is in, once again, their multiple cores which allow them to multitask much, much better than Intel, and well, AMD pricing is better. Since you're planning on using the computer with virtualization and other things, I suspect the Opteron would be the better deal.

Also, I'd like to point out that the Dual-Socket setup hurts performance for games rather than helped. So the main use of that would be to use on a server and not any desktop use.

Also, too, for PhysX, you're either getting a secondary (strong enough not to bottleneck your current) nVidia card or you're getting a pretty beefy nVidia card. The latter is so cost-effective. Really, though, PhysX is not really common enough on games to justify picking only nVidia cards let alone basing your PC around it. There are other physics engines in use today, and they will need a better processor to use them. Also, no to your question regarding PhysX; more cores will not help with it. The primary use (almost singular use) for PhysX is to offload the physics engine caculations onto the graphics card rather than the processor. The entire point of it is nVidia cards. Nothing else has the cuda cores required to make it worth it.  Again, you'll be looking at better multithreaded performance for physics engines not using PhysX, and you'll be looking nVidia cards for games using PhysX. Simple.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 03:26:17 PM by Honemi »

Offline zherok

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2013, 03:20:57 PM »
Skyrim, modded do all benefit from ram over 8GB, even if they can't utilise over 8 or 16 by themselves.

Skyrim actually crashes if you go over 3.1gb memory usage. It's an upper limit on modding. I wouldn't suggest less than 8 on a new machine but 32 or higher has nothing to do with games in the foreseeable future.

Offline Honemi

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #88 on: October 03, 2013, 03:28:31 PM »
Skyrim, modded do all benefit from ram over 8GB, even if they can't utilise over 8 or 16 by themselves.

Skyrim actually crashes if you go over 3.1gb memory usage. It's an upper limit on modding. I wouldn't suggest less than 8 on a new machine but 32 or higher has nothing to do with games in the foreseeable future.

Even after it is patched with the 4GB patch? I thought they did an update that allows it to use more memory. Wait, its still an 32-bit application, so it would be limited to approximately 4GB.

Maybe Joonas confused the combined usage of RAM and VRAM for just RAM? Shit, I'm confused.

Online JoonasTo

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #89 on: October 03, 2013, 04:16:47 PM »
32-bit applications/OSes have not been limited to 4GB or 3,2 GB of memory since 1995 and pentium pro. That's an artificial constraint introduced by Microsoft to make their life easier for creating drivers. Thus most gaming companies follow this to make their life easier when porting stuff to Windows. And even then that's only limit for a single process so one program running multiple child processes can exceed that limitation. Like mods that run parallel to the main process. *wink, wink*

Also even if a program is limited to 8GB or 4Gb or whatever, if you only have that much ram, the program won't be able to make use of that all since a significant portion of the memory is going to all the background processes, OS, antivirus, browser, torrents, mediasharing, etc. etc. So if you have more to satisfy those too, you can get the program to use the maximum memory. And you can run your swap/temp in the ram.

Oh and actually part of the reason why 32 bit windows(consumer, server editions can deal with more, all the way upto 128 gigs in the best versions if I remember correctly) is unable to utilise over 3,2GB of ram is that the addresses for the rest of the 800 megabytes is reserved for vram and other system addresses. So technically the more vram you want to use the less ram and so on.

Skyrim, modded do all benefit from ram over 8GB, even if they can't utilise over 8 or 16 by themselves.

Skyrim actually crashes if you go over 3.1gb memory usage. It's an upper limit on modding. I wouldn't suggest less than 8 on a new machine but 32 or higher has nothing to do with games in the foreseeable future.
They fixed that, you can go upto 4gb.




EDIT: Oh, and Microsoft and Intel have been married since forever so you can expect the new intel instructions to be included in Windows environment around two years earlier than AMD ones. This is how it's gone historically. Linux usually gets everything a year earlier than Microsoft but you mentioned you won't be using it so that's a fact that you might want to keep in mind.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 04:31:00 PM by JoonasTo »

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Offline Honemi

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #90 on: October 03, 2013, 04:54:56 PM »
Thanks, I never did bother to learn about address space and anything.

I do agree if you're doing a lot of multitasking that more than 8GB of RAM may be useful, but you'd be hard pressed to justify more than 16GB of RAM for normal desktop usage even if you game. Of course, the point is kind of moot since this build will eventually be transformed into a server.

I just don't think video games will be using more than 8GB of RAM 5 or 7 years from now. And outside of a memory leak, I don't expect background processes to use more than 4GB.

But, hey, what the fuck do I know? I can't predict the future or know Pentium100's exact setup.

Offline zherok

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #91 on: October 03, 2013, 08:19:57 PM »
They fixed that, you can go upto 4gb.
They patched LAA in ages ago, it still crashes at 3.1gb. Newer versions of ENB supposedly help with memory management but I don't think it's confirmed that it alleviates the issue entirely.

Never ran into it personally, but I was playing with a 6670 Radeon in mind. Probably get a lot closer now that I've replaced it.

Offline Pentium100

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #92 on: October 04, 2013, 07:16:26 PM »
So, I'm going with the double upgrade idea: buy a smaller system now, then upgrade it later (everyone promised that I would not need to reinstall Win7, let's hope it is so) with the rand new parts that are not on market yet and use this system to upgrade a server.

Here's what I selected:
ASUS KCMA-D8 ($400) (it's either this or Tyan S8225 and that one is $650+ even though it's a bit better (more than one x16 PCIe slot))
2x Opteron 4238 (2x$176)

And then save money for the new Opterons or Xeons next winter.

Anyone want to add anything?

Anyway, thank you to everyone who participated - you saved me quite a lot of headache trying to catch up by myself.
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Offline Honemi

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #93 on: October 04, 2013, 08:38:06 PM »
You'll be able to transplant your drive to another computer, yes. There may be some issues with drivers, and your OS will be deactivated. (You can just reactive it). I'd just backup my data and reinstall everything myself, but you do whatever is most convenient for you.

Make sure the revision number for your processors are the same. It'll cause a BSOD if not. Not a problem for XP, but Windows Vista/7 don't play that shit.

You're kind of overpaying for your motherboard, but you're getting a great deal on your processors. It evens out I believe.

Also make sure you have a soundcard; that motherboard ain't packing no audio codec.

Sorry if I'm saying anything you know already.

If my understanding of AMD's Opteron are correct, those processors should preform similarly to the FX 6100. With that in mind, I suggest you avoid too many CPU-bound games; otherwise, you're fine.

Offline Pentium100

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2013, 08:51:19 PM »
You'll be able to transplant your drive to another computer, yes. There may be some issues with drivers, and your OS will be deactivated. (You can just reactive it). I'd just backup my data and reinstall everything myself, but you do whatever is most convenient for you.
Reinstall is painful, well, at least to me, as I am used to steady state.
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Make sure the revision number for your processors are the same. It'll cause a BSOD if not. Not a problem for XP, but Windows Vista/7 don't play that shit.
I'll ask the seller.
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You're kind of overpaying for your motherboard, but you're getting a great deal on your processors. It evens out I believe.
I am looking for a way to get the MB cheaper, but this is the cheapest I have currently found (from a seller that can ship to me, anyway).
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Also make sure you have a soundcard; that motherboard ain't packing no audio codec.
I always used a separate sound card with my main PC from the old days of the actual Pentium 100. I have a creative X-Fi XtremeMusic (one of the first released), but will most likely upgrade to something better (finally an audiophile-grade card like Creative ZxR ($200), not the final decision on that though - more reviews to read) as the even newer motherboard most likely won't have any conventional PCI slots and my HTPC needs a sound card (the X-Fi will be good there).
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Offline Honemi

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #95 on: October 05, 2013, 12:44:49 AM »
If I may be so bold to continue to make some recommendations:

I'd suggest a Creative Sound Blaster Z(X) over the ZXR version. The ZXR has slightly better audio quality, but the main distinction between it and the other Z series cards is that the ZXR has a daughterboard focused mainly for recording. If you aren't recording a lot, then the main benefit of the ZXR over the Z(X) is gone. Also, the difference between the Z and ZX is that the ZX has a control module (portable volume knob).

Of course, if you're using your sound card mainly (solely?) for headphones, I'd recommend a Magni+Modi combo. Or the O2+ODAC if you can get yours hands on one (and looking for a reference class DAC/External Soundcard). They'll offer better sound quality, but you won't be getting the other special effects included with Creative sound cards.

Or get an AVR and use HDMI.

Or, or, I'll shut up now.

Online kitamesume

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #96 on: October 05, 2013, 12:48:15 AM »
xonar STX and screw everything else, they go for $160 and i doubt anything else could best such a low price.

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Offline Pentium100

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #97 on: October 05, 2013, 01:53:25 AM »
The Xonar card has only one input - combined line-in and microphone-in, just like my current X-Fi. The problem is that for some reason the switching kinda failed and now one channel is permanently in "mic" mode - it can record, but the source has to have low output impedance. Also, even when it worked correctly, some software automatically switched the input to mic mode putting +5V out the input and into the output of some other device (didn't really matter if I wasn't copying a record to tape at the time, not so good if I was). That lead me to put DC filter caps between the input of the sound card and the program route selector (dbx 400), but now I can't use the mic input.

I mainly use headphones, but I also have a couple of tape decks, a radio and a record player connected to the same system, so USB headphones or using HDMI is not an option.

I also noticed that in the specs of both card, the input impedance is not published. Weird, though it's probably 10K, just like all other sound cards.
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Online kitamesume

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2013, 02:21:08 AM »
thats pretty much due to software issues, try checking uni xonar drivers, i think they've fixed the toggle issue there.

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Offline Pentium100

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Re: New PC - Xeon or Opteron?
« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2013, 02:24:26 AM »
thats pretty much due to software issues, try checking uni xonar drivers, i think they've fixed the toggle issue there.
Or it could be a broken chip. Anyway, even if the permanent mic mode does not happen, the problem of other software (games and skype mostly) randomly switching the input to mic remains.
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