Miyazaki's Call Out of Otakus

[Grimpak]

hmm... this thread is popcorn worthy.

[Zalis116]

I don't like his idiotic antics but he has a point.

I want more substance.

And how many "substantial" anime have you purchased? That's the problem; either "normals" who want non-otaku anime don't actually buy anime, or they and their purchases aren't numerous enough to have an impact on what gets made. People in the epic-but-locked ANN response thread accused the industry of being insular and "going back to the well" too often. But going to the well is far preferable over randomly wandering through the desert trying to find an oasis, which is what making "respectable" anime for normals constitutes these days.

[Nodame-chan]

I personally like fanservice and ecchi at times (emphasis on: AT TIMES).
But if I had to choose between say.. HOTD, Kore wa Zombie desu ka?, etc., all together and just one random Miyazaki movie I'd go with Miyazaki.
Because that's the real anime. Beauty, love, friendship, courage and so many other things you can find in Miyazaki's movies.

And what is fanservice providing us with? Right... the "PLOT" >_> 'tis all about boobs. Oh and asses.

[Bob2004]

Have all the people claiming that "Oh, nobody other than otaku buys anime, so making anime aimed at normal people wouldn't work", or "Oh, nobody would pay the high prices anime blurays normally sell at" stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, "normal" people (ie. people who don't watch TV so they can jack off to semi-explicit shots of underaged cartoon girls) might buy more anime if it were targeted towards them?

The only reason most anime sales are to otaku is because they're the only ones who would consider watching a lot of the shit that gets made these days. And the reason its so expensive (beyond the fact that DVDs and blurays generally are more expensive in Japan to begin with) is because otaku are few in number, so they have to charge a high price to get the same returns. Also otaku are very easy to trick into paying five times the price for 'special editions' etc.

This isn't America we're talking about here - this is Japan. There's no particular stigma against anime, and virtually everyone has grown up watching it as a kid. Manga is read by the majority of the population too - I see at least as many bored salarymen reading manga on the subway as I do reading other books. Possibly more if anything.

Ghibli films, when they hit cinemas, are invariably among the highest grossing films in the country. Not just among anime, but among everything - be it other japanese films, or the latest Hollywood blockbuster. Trying to say there is no market for anime targeted at anyone other than the crazy otaku who spend all their free time watching hentai and going to schoolgirl cafes in Akiba (yes, they exist. Yes, there are a lot of them. Yes, they are exactly how they sound) is just stupid. Because there really, really is.

That is why anime only targeting this one incredibly niche market segment is a problem. It excludes the entire rest of the potential anime market, and due to the nature of the niche it's targeting, only ends up making anime as a whole look bad. And when that niche is no longer profitable - which will happen eventually, either due to demographic changes, social or economic changes, or just people losing interest - a lot of anime studios will be in a pretty sticky situation, having put all their eggs in that one basket.

[shabutie]

I think something people are missing here is he isn't talking about the fanbase. 

He's stating the people in the industry, those making the anime, are all otaku's. 

They're only making stuff that other otaku's would like, and focusing on their current market, and not the overall picture.

Obviously the industry is going to decline if you ONLY cater towards those who you already have as fans, and don't actively pursue new fans.  That's what Miyazaki is getting at here.  (Lets face it... If I show some of my non-anime fan friends moe/ecchi based shows, they'll say things like, "Pfft, Typical Japan".  But if I were to show them something that digs a bit deeper, they may think differently.  Where it's at now, and what's in the spot light now isn't doing much to help that cause.)


But yeah, He's attacking the industry here, not the fanbase (well... he is attacking the fanbase by proxy)

[Bozobub]

I think Miyazaki has a definite point, BUT...  Lets look back on anime throughout recent history (say, 30 years or so); how many of those titles really were superior, or in fact, were NOT unbearably eye-cancerish, brain-burning, hideous disasters?  I mean, "Ba Oh: The Visitor" is not a new title, nor was the "Orotsukidoji" ("Legend of the Overfiend") series, or many other quite bad titles; "MD Geist", anyone?  Nor is fanservice particularly new, as anyone who has seen the "Dirty Pair" movies - or for that matter, "Orotsukidoji", which invented tentacle porn - can attest.

I posit to you all that any particular 10-year "slice" of anime/manga history has, in fact, roughly the same percentage of gems amongst the dross.  Now, in more recent years, that sampling can become a lot more overwhelming, as the industry continues to expand and produce more and more titles per year (also from more countries), but I still think the "gems-to-dross" ratio remains fairly constant.  I mean, can anyone here REALLY argue that the "Natsume Yuujinchou" series is crap?  What about "Macross Frontier"?  We all know I could go on, naming many superior titles, right?

I think that Miyazaki is at least partially suffering the "This damn new generation!" syndrome that most older folks fall into.  While he does identify some troubling trends in the industry, I think he doesn't acknowledge the positive ones at all.

[SchoolDaysEX]

The only reason most anime sales are to otaku is because they're the only ones who would consider watching a lot of the shit that gets made these days. And the reason its so expensive (beyond the fact that DVDs and blurays generally are more expensive in Japan to begin with) is because otaku are few in number, so they have to charge a high price to get the same returns. Also otaku are very easy to trick into paying five times the price for 'special editions' etc.

I agree, let the otaku vote with their money. As long as this continues there will be more fanservice. No problems with that.

[Bob2004]

I think something people are missing here is he isn't talking about the fanbase. 

He's stating the people in the industry, those making the anime, are all otaku's. 

They're only making stuff that other otaku's would like, and focusing on their current market, and not the overall picture.

Obviously the industry is going to decline if you ONLY cater towards those who you already have as fans, and don't actively pursue new fans.  That's what Miyazaki is getting at here.  (Lets face it... If I show some of my non-anime fan friends moe/ecchi based shows, they'll say things like, "Pfft, Typical Japan".  But if I were to show them something that digs a bit deeper, they may think differently.  Where it's at now, and what's in the spot light now isn't doing much to help that cause.)


But yeah, He's attacking the industry here, not the fanbase (well... he is attacking the fanbase by proxy)

Actually yeah, you're right. Going and re-reading the original quote, he is simply saying that the people who make most modern anime are otaku, with extremely poor social skills, who avoid people. And because they avoid people, they can't draw people realistically. Which is a fair criticism - many of the otaku I've met (the hard core otaku) do fit that description, to varying extents. There are many who don't, too, of course.

I still agree with him, though it is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, and there are doubtless many exceptions. I still stick by my original post, too.

The only reason most anime sales are to otaku is because they're the only ones who would consider watching a lot of the shit that gets made these days. And the reason its so expensive (beyond the fact that DVDs and blurays generally are more expensive in Japan to begin with) is because otaku are few in number, so they have to charge a high price to get the same returns. Also otaku are very easy to trick into paying five times the price for 'special editions' etc.

I agree, let the otaku vote with their money. As long as this continues there will be more fanservice. No problems with that.

If you want to wank over schoolgirls that badly, go watch hentai instead. That's what it's for. But please leave that stuff out of normal TV, since most of us are not interested.

[Gh0st93]

Old man seems a little crazy, but he has a bit of a point. Fanservice is gotten to a point where it is way to extreme not the intensity(normally) but the frequency, Things like showing a character has serious sex appeal or two characters are getting together (chemistry) that's fine. That's a part of life but anymore a ghost breeze comes through and skirts go flying like an F5 is ripping through. And if someone is being cute ok but are they really that cute every 30 seconds. I would agree the majority of stuff is either stupid or borderline porn if I want to see tits and ass every other minute then I'll go watch porn.

What happened to shows like The Big O and Cowboy bebop where you could display sex appeal but not drown in it. Fuck look at black lagoon sex and sexuality is a common theme of that show but they actually have a story line and they don't try to beat you over the head with it. Now sometimes a little excessive T&A and "moe" (kind of like "so stupid I can laugh at it.") is nice but to me that's filler whether it be filler in an actual show or I have time to waste so I watch a show with a good deal of it in there. But I don't remember 90% of those shows but the good ones with actual stories and not just constant borderline porn I remember, I want to buy the DVDs and Blu-ray because they are awesome and if I want to re-watch them I can.

[SchoolDaysEX]

Can't expect to get a "normal" guy with a wife and kid for 2 dollars an hour. McDonalds workers get 3x more. The otaku illustrators are the reason for variety and you better believe they love their work to be willing to work for that little. If you blame the animation producing studios for choosing to animate fanservice, then start your own anime studio. They choose what to animate what they want.

If you want to wank over schoolgirls that badly, go watch hentai instead. That's what it's for. But please leave that stuff out of normal TV, since most of us are not interested.

It is usually aired after midnight. No one is forcing anyone to watch anything. If you don't like it then ignore it. If it isn't illegal, then they can pay to advertise their shows on a t.v. channel.

[Gh0st93]

Can't expect to get a "normal" guy with a wife and kid for 2 dollars an hour.

Do you have a source for this whole $2 an hour thing?

[SchoolDaysEX]

Do you have a source for this whole $2 an hour thing?

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/05/23/japanese-animators-get-slave-wages-11000-a-year/
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-09-10/directors-dispute-reports-of-poor-animator-salaries
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/05/28/animators-1-frame-1-hour-1-frame-2/

In between animator earns 2.65 a drawing, and it often takes longer for one per hour. Keep in mind that the dollar is relatively strong, but even A MCDONALDS EMPLOYEE makes 3x more per hour. Also most studios are relatively small.

[Tatsujin]

Do you have a source for this whole $2 an hour thing?

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/05/23/japanese-animators-get-slave-wages-11000-a-year/
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-09-10/directors-dispute-reports-of-poor-animator-salaries
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/05/28/animators-1-frame-1-hour-1-frame-2/

In between animator earns 2.65 a drawing, and it often takes longer for one per hour. Keep in mind that the dollar is relatively strong, but even A MCDONALDS EMPLOYEE makes 3x more per hour. Also most studios are relatively small.

It's not very hard to live in Japan, but that wage is fucking crazy low ... way too low. Isn't there a federal wage law in Japan or some shit?

[SchoolDaysEX]

It is a little outdated but considering the average still hasn't changed, it is realistically 4 dollars an hour. I guess I quoted from a very extreme example. That is still half of minimum wage though.
While I checked out the average wage, I found out that the average salary of a Russian doctor is equal to an animator.

[Mimishiki19]

Crazy old man yet some throw a hissy over it...
Forget the boobs.There were always boobs and there will always be anime about boobs....BOOOOOOBS!(sorry,got caught up in the boobs).

I don't know what he was trying to say but what I got is that the otakus that make the anime cannot draw as in bring to life characters that are relatable, realistic or at least believable.It's not only the fact that their uhm...face expressions?...are almost impossible for human to replicate but also their personalities and the way they socialize.
Hell Sailor Moon is a more well structured character than the main protagonist in a lot, a lot of modern anime.
The old ones even if they were made for kids were not made by kids .

"This isn't America we're talking about here - this is Japan. There's no particular stigma against anime, and virtually everyone has grown up watching it as a kid. Manga is read by the majority of the population too - I see at least as many bored salarymen reading manga on the subway as I do reading other books. Possibly more if anything."

Nope.Anime is considered something for kids in Japan too.If you're hanging alot around Akihabara maybe you don't see it.
Kids or perverts.The latest anime do not improve this image.Miyazaki did but he's a drop in the ocean.

There's also the fact that Japan is losing it's youth so in the future it's either going to be unwatchable moe-blob, boob-blob, w/e crap blob or pure gold.

[dbml]

I hope his words have an effect on the creation of new anime. Being just one person speaking his mind, I doubt it... but I'd like it. Moe and trashy fanservice series need to go back into hiding for a few years. I'm sick of all the fluff.

[krumm]

I wont care if the ecchi went away, but don't touch my moe.

[megido-rev.M]

And here my watchlist is at least 10 shows this season.

[Tatsujin]

It is a little outdated but considering the average still hasn't changed, it is realistically 4 dollars an hour. I guess I quoted from a very extreme example. That is still half of minimum wage though.
While I checked out the average wage, I found out that the average salary of a Russian doctor is equal to an animator.

4 dollars an hour?! ... Wow, fuck that shit. Is that real? Where's Bob when you need him?

[Hadouken]

And here my watchlist is at least 10 shows this season.

Better than me. Only 1 on my watchlist.