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Miyazaki's Call Out of Otakus

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Zalis116:

--- Quote from: Bob2004 on February 01, 2014, 09:35:55 PM ---Have all the people claiming that "Oh, nobody other than otaku buys anime, so making anime aimed at normal people wouldn't work", or "Oh, nobody would pay the high prices anime blurays normally sell at" stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, "normal" people (ie. people who don't watch TV so they can jack off to semi-explicit shots of underaged cartoon girls) might buy more anime if it were targeted towards them?
--- End quote ---
Says the guy with an avatar from a show about underage schoolgirls whose character designs and fanservice inspired people to wonder if said schoolgirls were wearing panties or not. (But hey, I'm not judging here!) I've stopped to consider that, but I've also considered that the anime industry used to make more anime like that, but it failed. But anyway, I'll crossquote myself from MAL.

There were more of the so-called "Type A" anime made ~10 years ago, not even in the 90s let alone the 80s. Stuff like Monster, Honey & Clover, Texhnolyze, Haibane Renmei, Paranoia Agent, Koi Kaze, Paradise Kiss, Heat Guy J, Speed Grapher (debatable perhaps?), Mushi-shi*, Planetes, Kino's Journey, GitS:SAC, Wolf's Rain, RahXephon**, Kurau Phantom Memory, and probably others I'm forgetting about. (Gonzo's numerous other early/mid-00s attempts at appealing to Western viewers instead of Japanese otaku also come to mind.)

The industry certainly tried, but those shows (many of them anime-original) didn't sell well enough or didn't reach enough people. And somehow, I don't think "you'd better make what we want, or a bunch of people who don't buy anime will continue to not buy anime" is a credible threat that will hold the industry's feet to the fire. It could be argued that the Western anime boom after Evangelion and Cowboy Bebop (and a little franchise called Pokemon, among others) fueled a trend towards "MoarSRS" anime, but when those projects didn't deliver the expected returns, the budgets for ambitious anime-original projects dried up. And with shoujo/josei content shifting more towards live-action, that leaves otaku-friendly manga/LN/VN adaptations as the main material being made.

*Which actually is getting a sequel, so maybe it didn't do too terribly.
** I see RahXephon as a moe harem comedy with other elements that convince the moe-haters to give it a pass, much like Steins;Gate.


--- Quote ---This isn't America we're talking about here - this is Japan. There's no particular stigma against anime, and virtually everyone has grown up watching it as a kid. Manga is read by the majority of the population too - I see at least as many bored salarymen reading manga on the subway as I do reading other books. Possibly more if anything.
--- End quote ---
Manga may be considered okay depending on the title, but late-night anime (anything aside from Ghibli and similar blockbusters, Gundam, The Big 3 and a few other major shounen, Pretty Cure and similar Magical Girl shows, and all-ages family series that've been running for decades like Detective Conan, Sazae-san, Doraemon, etc.) is considered the realm of otakus, and displaying any knowledge or appreciation of them will get you stigmatized in polite Japanese society. Why should late-night anime studios make product for a society that hates them? Again, they tried in the past -- everything I listed above aired from 2002-05 -- but it didn't work. Businesses are going to do what makes them a profit and keeps them alive.


--- Quote ---Ghibli films, when they hit cinemas, are invariably among the highest grossing films in the country. Not just among anime, but among everything - be it other japanese films, or the latest Hollywood blockbuster. Trying to say there is no market for anime targeted at anyone other than the crazy otaku who spend all their free time watching hentai and going to schoolgirl cafes in Akiba (yes, they exist. Yes, there are a lot of them. Yes, they are exactly how they sound) is just stupid. Because there really, really is.
--- End quote ---
  Not everyone can be Ghibli. Miyazaki and Ghibli have the luxury of having their output being considered acceptable by the mainstream, while other studios do not.


--- Quote ---That is why anime only targeting this one incredibly niche market segment is a problem. It excludes the entire rest of the potential anime market, and due to the nature of the niche it's targeting, only ends up making anime as a whole look bad. And when that niche is no longer profitable - which will happen eventually, either due to demographic changes, social or economic changes, or just people losing interest - a lot of anime studios will be in a pretty sticky situation, having put all their eggs in that one basket.
--- End quote ---
So they should just make overambitious expensive normals-targeting failures and go bankrupt in a blaze of glory, rather than continuing to create what they like for their niche fandoms for as long as they can?


--- Quote from: Gh0st93 ---What happened to shows like The Big O and Cowboy bebop where you could display sex appeal but not drown in it.
--- End quote ---
They were far more popular in the West than in Japan. As you may know, Big O only got its second season because Cartoon Network stepped in to help fund it. But when Western viewers decided not to buy as much anime for whatever reason, they effectively said, "We agree to cede all financial input over what anime gets made to the people whose purchases subsidize our anime consumption -- to the Japanese otakus."

So again I ask of those who prefer serious/mature/sophisticated/whatever anime, how much of it have you purchased? Saying "well maybe if they made something for me I might buy it" is a dodge, because these anime have existed and been available outside of Japan in the past.

As for the other thrust of Miyazaki's statement, where are animators and directors supposed to find time to people-watch? In their youths, they're told to focus all their energy on homework and entrance exam studies if they ever hope to get into university and find a decent job. And these days in Japan, if an adult male so much as breathes the same air as a girl under 20, he's going to have the police after him pretty darn quick:

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/12/10/police-hunt-man-for-smiling-at-schoolgirl/
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/07/19/police-hunt-man-spoken-to-by-child/
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/04/27/police-hunt-man-for-asking-girls-directions/
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2012/06/22/police-hunt-man-for-standing-at-station/
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2012/11/23/man-hunted-for-overtaking-schoolgirl/

Lord of Fire:
I'm sure the man makes some good points regarding the anime industry as a whole, but what does he and his fellow countrymen (industry colleagues and such) plan on doing about it? If the only people willing to create anime are the same that watch it, thus making characters act less realistic, which makes (a lot of) people complain about it, then the industry is apparently doing something wrong. And if the average wage numbers and long hours listed are correct (would like to see a more credible source than SC on this one), then that would probably be a good place to start. If the pay is more attractive and the hours are more manageable, the work might become more attractive to non-otaku and you might make the anime that is being created better, too.

However, this has to come from all sides of the industry. Budgets need to increase for that to happen, meaning the companies involved need to take more risks and when you're not sure if your product can recoup all the costs involved, that's gonna be a tough decision to make and I can perfectly understand why it takes so long for trends to change when I take that into account.

Of course, there's also the shut-in problem, which I assume is Miyazaki's main issue. These people don't become shut-in for fun, they usually do it because they're overwhelmed by outside pressure and seclude themselves in the comfort of their own homes, retreating to fictional media such as anime to kill time and prevent boredom. If the average, 'normal' people want this to change, they'll have to work for it, as it's their fault it came this far. If the pressure to become successful in Japan is as high as is often claimed, then this needs to be looked at, as it apparently makes a lot of people uncomfortable. However, this will take a very long time, as it requires a radical change in how the Japanese view their own culture, and I'm sure most people can't wait that long.

Right now, the anime industry caters to those who are willing to spend insane prices on 'limited' or 'special' edition Blu-rays. And as long as these people stay the industry's most loyal customers, don't expect any huge changes from them anytime soon.

marinosgr:
Well it's not the only anime industry in this.It's a more general approach coming from the east.Think of how much have the Japanese games been sexualized in the past years(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-MI-O1rKGE).I don't know how they were a decade ago but still some have gone way too far.Of course it happens in western games to but less.And well even if the indusrty is full of otakus they are mostly the designers.I don't think that the company directors and high level employees are just otakus who love moe stuff and ecchi.It's just that this is the best market for them.Japanese anime indusrty is always going to be centered around it's japanese fandom first and then the west.Miyazaki sees the problem but not the reason why it was created I think.But he has a point as to what the future of the industry will be.If Japanese audiences wanted more anime like Cowboy Bebop and others which western audiences love then they would have them  :-\ .But they don't seem to favor that kind of shows.But still he really leaves aside the fact that we had many good anime this decade.Death Note and Code Geass where loved by both audiences and were a marketing success.Not to mention that Attack on Titan and Magi two series which are quite recent have gone to the top 5 sales in Japan for manga in 2013.

Grimpak:
money talks.
the biggest pile of money talks the most.


*continues to munch on the popcorn.*

marinosgr:

--- Quote from: Grimpak on February 03, 2014, 09:50:15 AM ---money talks.
the biggest pile of money talks the most.


*continues to munch on the popcorn.*

--- End quote ---

Have you been munching popcorn for the last 2 days :o ?

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