Author Topic: Japan: Hypothetical War against China/US  (Read 747 times)

Online lololitas

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Re: Japan: Hypothetical War against China/US
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2014, 03:35:41 PM »
But tell those otakus their favorite series will be discontinued... ::)

Offline bloody000

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Re: Japan: Hypothetical War against China/US
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2014, 04:30:17 PM »
But tell those otakus their favorite series will be discontinued... ::)

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Offline ErwinJA

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Re: Japan: Hypothetical War against China/US
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2014, 07:32:44 AM »
Cue essay:


First off, the OP is more than a little ridiculous. Throwing fantasy tech to shore up one side in what you think is a lopsided match defeats any valid purpose for such an exercise, all the more so because it's not as lopsided as it appears at first glance. A more appropriate thing to consider would be something that could actually exist/occur that would affect the dynamic of the fight. And make no mistake, there are scenarios where Japan wins against both. But that's the clincher: who wins depends on how and where such a war is being fought.

First, let us understand the players and their capabilities:

Japan
(click to show/hide)

China
(click to show/hide)

I don't think I need to go into heavy detail about the capabilities of the US. Suffice to say they're the only nation on earth that can have an entire air force and several divisions anywhere they're needed in a matter of days, and have well trained and well equipped troops.


Likely scenario 1: Chinese attempt to seize Senkaku Islands
(click to show/hide)

Less Likely Scenario 2: China goes after Okinawa
(click to show/hide)

Somewhat Likely Scenario 3: China expands a war and goes after home islands:
(click to show/hide)

There is no seriously viable scenario for a US intervention. I mean, we could imagine an autocrat taking control and committing atrocities, but more likely the entire military would rebel and unseat such a person. Japan currently lacks the capability to take any territory due to lack of amphibious assets, and the only two pieces it really disputes that it doesn't control are Dok Do (controlled by South Korea, who can defend it themselves) and the Kuril Islands (Russia). If a battle was waged outside of Japan, the US would win. The US could beat any 3 nations if the site was well beyond any of their borders. However, an invasion of Japan could fail. Not necessarily would, but could. But again, it's a bit out there to contemplate.

Offline sawakosadako

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Re: Japan: Hypothetical War against China/US
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2014, 01:04:09 AM »
First of all thanks for the detailed analysis. It's very interesting. Although it's too bad you didn't put VF in the analysis  ;D

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First off, the OP is more than a little ridiculous. Throwing fantasy tech to shore up one side in what you think is a lopsided match defeats any valid purpose for such an exercise, all the more so because it's not as lopsided as it appears at first glance. A more appropriate thing to consider would be something that could actually exist/occur that would affect the dynamic of the fight. And make no mistake, there are scenarios where Japan wins against both. But that's the clincher: who wins depends on how and where such a war is being fought.
I didn't meant it to be a lopsided match. I only tried to balance it so Japan could have some advantage over China/US vast military arsenal. It's not like I add a Macross in their arsenal. Besides VF aren't that advance compare to alien technology. If I'm not mistaken they don't have any kind of shield technology.
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And while lacking nuclear-powered submarines, it has a very large conventional submarine force with top-of-the-line units.
I have to disagree about the lack of nuclear-powered submarines. A diesel-powered submarines is more stealthier than the nuclear-powered ones. So I believe it's well-suited to Japan, since their main job would be to ambush invading armed forces in their own water.

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There is no seriously viable scenario for a US intervention. I mean, we could imagine an autocrat taking control and committing atrocities, but more likely the entire military would rebel and unseat such a person. Japan currently lacks the capability to take any territory due to lack of amphibious assets, and the only two pieces it really disputes that it doesn't control are Dok Do (controlled by South Korea, who can defend it themselves) and the Kuril Islands (Russia). If a battle was waged outside of Japan, the US would win. The US could beat any 3 nations if the site was well beyond any of their borders. However, an invasion of Japan could fail. Not necessarily would, but could. But again, it's a bit out there to contemplate.
Although when making this thread I also thought that it is unthinkable that Japan would succeed in invading other nation due to their lack of natural resources (Japan's oil reserves +/- 50 days). But after answering some of the questions here I started to have doubts about it. I found two things that might tip the balance in this war and it's all due to the nature of the VF aircraft:

 - This aren't just aircraft but also a spacecraft and because of this it's very unlikely this aircraft use oil as their energy.
 - Because it is a spacecraft this makes Japan Air Force are comparable to the US blue-water navy. Despite the lack of aircraft carrier they can still project their power all over the globe.
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Offline ErwinJA

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Re: Japan: Hypothetical War against China/US
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2014, 12:54:14 AM »
Long delay aside (you know you're in for a rough week when all your superiors start being impossibly nice), there are some things to address:

First, while the defensive value of conventional submarines is obvious to the initiated, the MSDF has been wanting nuclear-powered vessels for decades, for two simple reasons: flexibility and response time. Japan has one of the largest maritime territories in the world, and while conventional submarines are very silent on batteries, their battery life is, to be blunt, crap. The typical speed on batteries is 3-4 knots, which is also about minimum steerageway. A standard sub, even with that minimal exertion, can only stay under for 3 days or so, up to 14 for first generation AIP submarines and 21+ for later. Power consumption approximately doubles for every 2-3 knots, so that three days turns to only 1 hour or less of combat maneuvering. After that, they have to run noisily near the surface to recharge the batteries (called snorting in the UK, snorkeling in the US). As such, the catch with conventional subs is that they still need to have a good idea of where and when the enemy will appear. If they're there too early or move too rapidly, they could end up having to expose themselves.
Nuclear-powered submarines bring three major advantages: the first is that they are typically about 40-70% faster than conventional submarines. The second is that they can maintain high speeds, submerged, indefinitely - the crew's needs are the only limiting factor. The third is that, while noisier at the lowest speeds, they suffer much less as speed increases,a nd therefore have a much higher tactical speed, which is the maximum speed at which they're still reasonably quiet. The Seawolf, for example, has been said to have a tactical speed of 20 knots, as fast as the top speed for most conventional units. Even slightly less advanced (western) ones have tactical speeds on par with the diesel cruise speed of conventional submarines. This means they can deploy to distant locations in a fraction of the time, more covertly, stay on station longer, and respond more quickly to changing situations.
Japan, along with the Philippines and Indonesia, is one of the few nations that has a very strong case for nuclear submarines even just for defense.

As for the need for space tech or VFs, I would expect that if a situation occurred where Japan and the US might be on a collision course, Japan would be preparing long before a conflict did break out, as such the entire dynamic would change. As long as it stays regional, the cost and logistics variables land heavily in Japan's favor, provided the demographic decline doesn't kill their economy. Perhaps we've advanced enough to have a nuclear powered aircraft that doesn't spew radiation all over the place. And perhaps Japan, one of the first nations to embrace hydrogen fuel cell technology for vehicles, improved that and others rapidly. But remember, the US would know of and respond to any significant advances in new technology that were clearly applied to military forces. Incremental advances would actually be more likely to lead to an advantage.

Offline sawakosadako

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Re: Japan: Hypothetical War against China/US
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2014, 03:55:45 AM »
http://japandailypress.com/japans-new-ninja-submarines-are-all-about-stealth-0146611/

There you go. They've already got one of those AIP type. Not sure how many they got though. IMO, if they got more of this and coupled with underwater base it would be perfect to counter any invasion especially from the Chinese.
"You seem to believe that you won the Cold War, but did you ever consider the possibility that what has really happened is that the internal contradictions of communism caught up with communism before the internal contradictions of capitalism could catch up with capitalism?!"
- Pakistani Ambassador, Geneva 1992 -

Offline bloody000

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All you have to do is study it out. Just study it out.