Author Topic: The General Chit Chat Thread  (Read 1541142 times)

Offline Reape

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23600 on: March 21, 2011, 09:22:49 PM »
But on the otherside, it would do reape some good too.  ;D

I knew that was coming. ::)

For my luck, though, my psychologist seems to strongly disagree with you.

Offline JoonasTo

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23601 on: March 21, 2011, 09:29:17 PM »
I've seen a lot of kids grow up in the army. It's a good experience for most.

So you're relieved of service in times of peace because of psychological issues then? Sucks to be you. That looks REAL bad on your record.

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Offline Ixarku

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23602 on: March 22, 2011, 01:25:13 AM »
^ yah, I know xD But while waiting taht day...

but you have to agree, I have some good stuff in my storage every now and then :P Just thta, it appears rarely :P
+ I'm Perhverted SadoMasochist with high chanses of turning into drunkard   xD
but naah, I'm gonna be a nurse. That is the path I chose, so I do dumb things while I can XD

A drunk sadomasochist nurse... No, there's nothing in that phrase that would be unsettling to a patient!
It took an hour to write; I figured it'd take an hour to read.

Online Burkingam

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23603 on: March 22, 2011, 02:41:08 AM »
It's people like this who would really benefit from having to go serve their country for a year.
I've seen a lot of kids grow up in the army. It's a good experience for most.

So you're relieved of service in times of peace because of psychological issues then? Sucks to be you. That looks REAL bad on your record.
Sorry, but it seams like I have a totally different opinion than you concerning the army and particularly conscription.

I think we can agree military training generally consist mainly of a combat training. Soldiers are trained to survive a combat to death, to kill before they are killed. In other words, they are trained killers. I'm perfectly aware that most conscripts will never participate to real fighting mission and even less commit an homicide, but that only means they won't accomplish what they are trained for. Now if you say such a training could make someone a better person, I'm sure you can figure how I could disagree. If soldiers only engaged voluntarily, I would try still try to convince people not to do it, but overall I would be able to accept it, but when a society force people in the army, now that is just sick.

Now let's analyse the credibility of the expression "serve one's country" as an euphemism for being a soldier. Note how the expression voluntary exploit the ambiguousness of the word "country". If by it you mean a given territory, that doesn't really make any sense. A territory is not an animated object and it doesn't have any will or feeling and it does not care who you fight or if you fight or even if you exist. If by country you mean the people populating the territory, which is obviously what the expression is suggesting, I think it is still not demonstrated that the military actually help them. I will come back on this one. The word country is also often used to designate a governmental. Because a government is usually at the top of an army's hierarchy, "serving one's country" would be true in this case, but to avoid ambiguousness, perhaps we should say "serving one's government", but I guess it doesn't have the same righteous feeling to, isn't it?

If what you really want to do is to help the people of your country, there are plenty of nonprofit organizations willing to accept your help. Helping handicapped people to eat three meals a day, for example, can really help improve there quality of life and by extension, the average quality of life of a population.

If what you are after is money, well in most developed countries, soldiers receive a lot less than the average salary. Beside, it's possible to do both, to be paid to help people like a nurse (1000mAh has the right idea).

Finally, if you were conscripted and are in the army against your will, I can see how obedience could serve you better than disobedience. But that's only true in your acts. You don't actually have to believe your superiors when they say your mission is just. You just need to act like you believed so. Your mind is your own territory, your freedom's last stronghold. Don't give it up so easily.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 12:03:00 PM by Burkingam »
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Offline tomoya-kun

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23604 on: March 22, 2011, 06:01:10 AM »
It's people like this who would really benefit from having to go serve their country for a year.
I've seen a lot of kids grow up in the army. It's a good experience for most.

So you're relieved of service in times of peace because of psychological issues then? Sucks to be you. That looks REAL bad on your record.
Sorry, but it seams like I have a totally different opinion than you concerning the army and particularly conscription.

I'm perfectly aware that most conscripts will never participate to real fighting mission and even less commit an homicide, but that only means they won't accomplish what they are trained for.

If there is ever a conscription enacted, then most conscripts will be used to relieve frontline soldiers and will see real combat.

Unless it is mandatory service during peacetime.


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Offline Reape

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23605 on: March 22, 2011, 08:31:46 AM »
I've seen a lot of kids grow up in the army.

Define "grow up".

Online Burkingam

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23606 on: March 22, 2011, 11:59:53 AM »

If there is ever a conscription enacted, then most conscripts will be used to relieve frontline soldiers and will see real combat.

Unless it is mandatory service during peacetime.

Mandatory service during peacetime is still conscription. Canada and USA don't do it, but it's enforced in many countries during peace time, particularly in asia, where most of the world's population is. See wikipedia for more details.
Spacetime tells matter how to move and matter tells spacetime how to curve.

Offline Meandola

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23607 on: March 22, 2011, 03:07:41 PM »
First volume of Spice & Wolf (light novel) finally arrived <3 so I'll be reading for the next few hours :P

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Offline SirSkyRider

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23608 on: March 22, 2011, 03:55:27 PM »
First volume of Spice & Wolf (light novel) finally arrived <3 so I'll be reading for the next few hours :P

Enjoy it. It's nice and you just reminded me that I need to get Vol. 2 ASAP.

Offline 1000mAh

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23609 on: March 22, 2011, 05:51:16 PM »
^ yah, I know xD But while waiting taht day...

but you have to agree, I have some good stuff in my storage every now and then :P Just thta, it appears rarely :P
+ I'm Perhverted SadoMasochist with high chanses of turning into drunkard   xD
but naah, I'm gonna be a nurse. That is the path I chose, so I do dumb things while I can XD

A drunk sadomasochist nurse... No, there's nothing in that phrase that would be unsettling to a patient!

oh relly :P I'm already scaring my friends that drive safely after I bocome a nurse, you can never know when I*m at work xD

But well, some one remembers the comic project  mentioned sumtime ago??
Well, decided to do it and finished the base for the 1st page today xD
(drawing on a paper)

Offline JoonasTo

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23610 on: March 22, 2011, 06:28:12 PM »
Burk dear, you're so tackling the wrong things. And you're totally out of your league.
Let's take this into parts:
1. Consists mainly of combat training.
2. That training is to make them killers.
3. Serving one's country

Points one and two are connected so I'm explaining them here.
Army consists of so much more than combat training. It's only a little part of people who are trained to true frontline infantry, logistics, indirect fire, armoured, navy, air force, recon, leading, information, etc. We can pretty much throw aside the others except true frontline infantry because they're the only ones trained for killing. That already counts out most of the conscripts. Then, how much of their daily schedule consists of combat training? 8 hours of sleep, 2 hours of eating, 3 hours of free time, 2 hours of daily routine, 9 hours of training.
Okay, so we got 9 hours a day for training. So let's divide that to Technical training, Tactical training, Strategic training and Fitness. Strategic training is only for officers so we can skip that, it just lowers our numbers by 1/40th or so, not relevant. Tactical training is given in very small part to the regular person and to officers and non-commissioned officers quite a lot, that's around 1/5th of the numbers already, that's significant, let's keep that. Then were left with technical and fitness, which are for everyone. Fitness is probably something like 1/10th and technical something like 8/10th and the rest 1/10th would be the wieghted average of tactical. So around 7 hours a day for technical. At least 2 hours of which are probably spent moving from one place to another. That leaves 5 hours for technical, shooting, gun control, grenades, all kind of tech you have to use, formations, battlefield movement, etc. etc. Not really sounding much for trained killing, you could say shooting gun control and such are tools for killing and you'd be right but we all know people throwing darts and that doesn't make them trained killers so we have to look further.
We come to the core of this, the battle course training, which consists of around half of shooting training so maybe 15 minutes a day on average. Around 4/5ths of this training is spent in building, taking down and planning the course. So that leaves around 3 minutes a day for actual battle course run. So what is this 3 minutes of a day training that's planned to make a man overcome his natural distress over killing other men? It consists of making aiming and shooting your gun an automatic reaction to seeing a hostile while moving, evading, communicating, being aware of your surroundings and supporting your team mates.
So how much do we have left? Some ten seconds or so per day for making it an automatic reaction against hostiles. When you're holding a gun(assault rifle usually), on battlefield filled with grenade explosions and gunshots where you've been prepared to go for days, weeks or months. Tell me, how often in normal life are you in such a situation? Unless you're part of an army corps currently in engagement with the enemy I could make a pretty valid quess of not once in your life.

So, one hour in a year's training to make them trained killers in highly specific situation that is nigh impossible to happen in regular life.
Compared to what trained atheletes train in a year, I'd see that as ridiculously small, hardly worth to call them trained killers. Or compared to the amount of FPS shooters you play I'd say you're closer to a trained killer psychologically than a conscripted soldier is.


Serving one's country was used just as an expression of doing the army but I can evaluate on that. You live in canada so you're probably "fuck it" but I bet most south koreans are pretty glad they aren't living in the north. Most finn's are also pretty damn grateful that they don't have to learn russian in school. Do I have to continue?




I've seen a lot of kids grow up in the army.

Define "grow up".
Learning to work as a part of a society, learning to work under pressure, learning to be more accepting of others, learning to take responsibility for themselves and others, learning to take care of simple everyday tasks.
Simply growing up, becoming more mature. Nothing that strange and mysterious.  :)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:32:31 PM by JoonasTo »

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Offline tomoya-kun

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23611 on: March 22, 2011, 07:55:48 PM »
First volume of Spice & Wolf (light novel) finally arrived <3 so I'll be reading for the next few hours :P

Enjoy it. It's nice and you just reminded me that I need to get Vol. 2 ASAP.

And volume 3 while you are at it.


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Online Burkingam

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23612 on: March 22, 2011, 07:57:16 PM »
@JoonasTo
So your argument is that the soldier training doesn't consist only of first hand fighting but my point is still valid. Even if your only function is to deliver food for exemple, you are still partly responsible for the atrocity the army could do, because your job is making it possible and you are perfectly aware of this. The same goes for all your examples. The final goal is to kill your enemy.
Note how this is not true with playing a shooter game or throwing dart. Gamers play games for fun, they don't intend to use it against anyone. They don't even care if their tactics would work in the real world. Soldiers are not playing, they are learning to fight another army.

On the 2nd point, do you think North Korean and Russian soldiers are also serving their country? Don't you think there army is also sized to compete with their potential enemies? And if you think it's different because they where the aggressors, lets just say your army could also but use offensively. If your superior send you in the front to attack another country, will you desert. If you are not in front line but are only supporting the troop, will you desert? And how will you know that you are not the aggressor? They can feed you with whatever information they want. When the Russian attacked Finland did the soldiers know they where doing something wrong?  Investing time and money on the military is a lot less efficient to improve the quality of life of a population than social programs. It's also has a smaller potential to cause tragedies.
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Offline 1000mAh

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23613 on: March 22, 2011, 08:07:30 PM »
I decided to rewatch Code Geass xD

Online Burkingam

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23614 on: March 22, 2011, 08:08:38 PM »
I decided to rewatch Code Geass xD

Ah if I had that much free time!
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Offline JoonasTo

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23615 on: March 22, 2011, 08:12:53 PM »
No. Your point was that they are trained killers. That point is not valid.

About the rest of your post. It's ethics and situational ones at that and I'm not going to arque over them.

Ps. The final point in war isn't to kill your enemy.

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Online Burkingam

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23616 on: March 22, 2011, 08:39:48 PM »
The final goal of your training is to kill your enemy. Of course, killing your enemy will have some kind political goal but you don't know what it will be when you receive your training. All you know is that you are trained to kill, directly or indirectly, which is a bad thing in itself.

As for my other arguments, of course I use situational examples to illustrate my point but those are the kind of situation you expected to face when you entered the army right?

And ethic? Of course we are talking about ethic. This all conversation is all about ethics.

When I challenged your position my goal is not to vanquish you. I'm trying to help you re-evaluate what you are doing. This is not a competition. There will be no winner and no looser. But I think it would not harm you to question what you are doing. If you sincerely challenge your own believes and try to see everything from the opposite point of view, you might change your mind or just strengthen  your opinion but at least your position will be better justified.
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Offline kurandoinu

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23617 on: March 22, 2011, 08:41:46 PM »
Yay! My competition work photographed fucking awesomely. :D

And I'll finally be able to upload it all to the Interwebz soon. ^_^

Offline JoonasTo

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23618 on: March 22, 2011, 08:46:50 PM »
Quote
In other words, they are trained killers. I'm perfectly aware that most conscripts will never participate to real fighting mission and even less commit an homicide, but that only means they won't accomplish what they are trained for. Now if you say such a training could make someone a better person, I'm sure you can figure how I could disagree.
This was the culmination of your post and this was the point that I deemed wrong. I think I got that point across. Going to the army will not make you a trained killer. Soldier, even a sniper, is still a very different thing from a trained killer, like a CIA/Mafia hitman/assassin.

The rest I don't care that much about.

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Offline Reape

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Re: The General Chit Chat Thread
« Reply #23619 on: March 23, 2011, 04:25:12 AM »
I've seen a lot of kids grow up in the army.

Define "grow up".
Learning to work as a part of a society, learning to work under pressure, learning to be more accepting of others, learning to take responsibility for themselves and others, learning to take care of simple everyday tasks.
Simply growing up, becoming more mature. Nothing that strange and mysterious.  :)

Oh, I wasn't expecting anything strange and mysterious. Just that everyone seems to have their own idea of "growing up".

I'd say most people develop those traits just fine without conscription, however. Maybe even better.