Discussion Forums > The Lounge
Learning Japanese
iindigo:
--- Quote from: anerph on May 06, 2009, 01:23:25 AM ---@yellowtable: Doesn't AJATT only tell you the meaning of the kanji and not the actual "on" and "kun" readings? To me, learning kanji without those things is just a waste of time. You might be able to guess a little at what your reading, but you better hope to god no one ever asks you to read out loud. Maybe I am thinking of some other kanji learning systems, but I was thinking that AJATT specifically gave weird English sentences and you were supposed to write the kanji as best you could (personally the English sentences they use rarely make any sense, and I find it much easier to hear from my Japanese teacher where the kanji originated from and why it looks the way it does rather than implementing the meaning into a sentence that vaguely describes the look). But, you know, whatever works for you is great :D
--- End quote ---
The idea is to learn the kanjis' appearance and definition first and then the reading later when you encounter them in Japanese content, not to just use the heisig method of learning kanji and stopping.
This approach makes each kanji character and its meaning rock-solid in your mind, and when you go to learn its reading later, you can concentrate solely on learning its reading instead of mentally juggling the appearance, definition, and reading all at once.
Work smarter, not harder.
mgz:
--- Quote from: yellowtable on May 05, 2009, 10:45:31 PM ---Sorry, I was banned for a week, sorry to the mod I pissed off! But all amends have been mended, all wrongs righted, and any insults retracted, so I'm back in business!
Anerph, again I'm just going to sound like a brainwashed AJATTer, but I think that Remembering the Kanji is the only really effective way to learn kanji. And learning kanji is incredibly important, if you want to read and write. Knowing (at least) all the joyo is going to be vital, if you want to learn the language. Having to rely on furigana is not a solution. Lots of publications (including most seinen manga) have none whatsoever. It's like an adult not learning how to ride a bike, and peddeling around with trainer wheels. Sure, it gets the job done, but you look like a silly, silly person. For how easy they are to learn, it seems silly not to learn them all.
Having said that, I'm only up to 460, but it's been easy cruising so far, so I'm upping my rates. Should be done by July.
--- End quote ---
just thought i would point out that there are A LOT of adults who have never ridden a bike
Aneroph:
--- Quote from: iindigo on May 06, 2009, 02:50:11 AM ---
--- Quote from: anerph on May 06, 2009, 01:23:25 AM ---@yellowtable: Doesn't AJATT only tell you the meaning of the kanji and not the actual "on" and "kun" readings? To me, learning kanji without those things is just a waste of time. You might be able to guess a little at what your reading, but you better hope to god no one ever asks you to read out loud. Maybe I am thinking of some other kanji learning systems, but I was thinking that AJATT specifically gave weird English sentences and you were supposed to write the kanji as best you could (personally the English sentences they use rarely make any sense, and I find it much easier to hear from my Japanese teacher where the kanji originated from and why it looks the way it does rather than implementing the meaning into a sentence that vaguely describes the look). But, you know, whatever works for you is great :D
--- End quote ---
The idea is to learn the kanjis' appearance and definition first and then the reading later when you encounter them in Japanese content, not to just use the heisig method of learning kanji and stopping.
This approach makes each kanji character and its meaning rock-solid in your mind, and when you go to learn its reading later, you can concentrate solely on learning its reading instead of mentally juggling the appearance, definition, and reading all at once.
Work smarter, not harder.
--- End quote ---
Yet again, an AJATT lover hops in to say "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY AND ALL OTHER WAYS ARE POINTLESS AND STUPID!". I guess it's pretty much pointless to post here anymore if we can't keep open minds about other methods. *stops watching topic*
iindigo:
--- Quote from: anerph on May 06, 2009, 03:35:23 AM ---Yet again, an AJATT lover hops in to say "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY AND ALL OTHER WAYS ARE POINTLESS AND STUPID!". I guess it's pretty much pointless to post here anymore if we can't keep open minds about other methods. *stops watching topic*
--- End quote ---
*sigh* I didn't say that. I'm just saying that AJATT isn't as pointless/incomplete/etc as you seem to think.
yellowtable:
--- Quote from: anerph on May 06, 2009, 01:23:25 AM ---@yellowtable: Doesn't AJATT only tell you the meaning of the kanji and not the actual "on" and "kun" readings? To me, learning kanji without those things is just a waste of time. You might be able to guess a little at what your reading, but you better hope to god no one ever asks you to read out loud. Maybe I am thinking of some other kanji learning systems, but I was thinking that AJATT specifically gave weird English sentences and you were supposed to write the kanji as best you could (personally the English sentences they use rarely make any sense, and I find it much easier to hear from my Japanese teacher where the kanji originated from and why it looks the way it does rather than implementing the meaning into a sentence that vaguely describes the look). But, you know, whatever works for you is great :D
--- End quote ---
Learning both (kanji + readings) at the same time makes it incredibly time consuming, compared to learning the english keywords. There's no way you can use mnemonics with the readings for the characters if you are learning new words to go along with them. If you learn all the kanji within two months, using RTK (something which is unthinkable using other methods), then you don't even think about 'learning the readings'. It becomes like learning a language with an alphabet. Even easier, actually, since there (as far as I know) no spelling exceptions. And since you already have an idea of what it means, based on the keyword, it makes it a heck of a lot easier. So, by putting RTK on the front of your language studies, you reduce learning Japanese writing to something easier than learning alphabetic languages. From the writing aspect.
For example, my brother has been learning Mandarin at university for three years. He's still learning new Hanzi every week, after all this time. He could have easily got it out the way within two months before he started (if Remembering the Hanzi was out back then...). No 'learning the readings' would have to be done, you pick them up easily and naturally. You see the reading, and associate it with the keyword you have in your head, and you don't think about it twice.
It seems kind of illogical (initially), but look at the results. People using the AJATT/RTK method aren't able speak a single (well, not many...) word of Japanese for the first few months. While the people using the school/university method get their first few hundred kanji/readings out the way. The AJATTers, after the 2042 kanji are learned, then learn readings as they look at sentences, keeping up their rate of going 10x faster (literally, I'm using my brother as an example here... and he's learning Mandarin, which only has one reading per character. I'm pretty sure.), without having to do any drilling.
Again, I'm only starting down the road (but I'm already up to 500 kanji, compared to whatever I said last time). So I haven't experienced the whole thing first hand yet. However, as my philosophy class says, you can't attack an argument because the speaker has not lived up to his argument. But look at all the AJATT success stories, and you'll see I'm not just ranting here. Well ok, maybe a little ;)
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