Author Topic: Learning Japanese  (Read 29746 times)

Offline psyren

  • Member
  • Posts: 11718
  • Ангелы и демоны кружили надо мной...
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #120 on: May 03, 2009, 08:53:31 AM »
Technically, it's 'dzu'. Naturally, as a harder version of 'tsu'. Bear in mind that the Japanese fail at romanising.

Hold Nothing: If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet your ancestor, kill your ancestor. Free of everything, bound by nothing, live your life as it is.
Click here if you can't play h264 encodes

Offline Tatsujin

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 15632
    • Otakixus
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #121 on: May 03, 2009, 08:54:40 AM »
Technically, it's 'dzu'. Naturally, as a harder version of 'tsu'. Bear in mind that the Japanese fail at romanising.
So when you pronounce it, its actually "dzu" rather than "zu"?

And yes, they fail miserably ...


¸¸,.-~*'¨¨¨™¤¦ Otakixus ¦¤™¨¨¨'*~-.,¸¸

Offline psyren

  • Member
  • Posts: 11718
  • Ангелы и демоны кружили надо мной...
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #122 on: May 03, 2009, 08:57:58 AM »
Yeah.
It's not a heavy 'd' sound, though. It's not really obvious in speech unless you listen for it.

Hold Nothing: If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet your ancestor, kill your ancestor. Free of everything, bound by nothing, live your life as it is.
Click here if you can't play h264 encodes

Offline yellowtable

  • Member
  • Posts: 32
  • Take my avatar, but you can't take my freedom!
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #123 on: May 05, 2009, 10:45:31 PM »
Sorry, I was banned for a week, sorry to the mod I pissed off! But all amends have been mended, all wrongs righted, and any insults retracted, so I'm back in business!

Anerph, again I'm just going to sound like a brainwashed AJATTer, but I think that Remembering the Kanji is the only really effective way to learn kanji. And learning kanji is incredibly important, if you want to read and write. Knowing (at least) all the joyo is going to be vital, if you want to learn the language. Having to rely on furigana is not a solution. Lots of publications (including most seinen manga) have none whatsoever. It's like an adult not learning how to ride a bike, and peddeling around with trainer wheels. Sure, it gets the job done, but you look like a silly, silly person. For how easy they are to learn, it seems silly not to learn them all.

Having said that, I'm only up to 460, but it's been easy cruising so far, so I'm upping my rates. Should be done by July.

Offline Aneroph

  • Member
  • Posts: 2090
  • 笑顔で暗闇
    • Deviantart
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #124 on: May 06, 2009, 01:23:25 AM »
@yellowtable: Doesn't AJATT only tell you the meaning of the kanji and not the actual "on" and "kun" readings? To me, learning kanji without those things is just a waste of time. You might be able to guess a little at what your reading, but you better hope to god no one ever asks you to read out loud. Maybe I am thinking of some other kanji learning systems, but I was thinking that AJATT specifically gave weird English sentences and you were supposed to write the kanji as best you could (personally the English sentences they use rarely make any sense, and I find it much easier to hear from my Japanese teacher where the kanji originated from and why it looks the way it does rather than implementing the meaning into a sentence that vaguely describes the look). But, you know, whatever works for you is great :D

Offline iindigo

  • Member
  • Posts: 2066
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #125 on: May 06, 2009, 02:50:11 AM »
@yellowtable: Doesn't AJATT only tell you the meaning of the kanji and not the actual "on" and "kun" readings? To me, learning kanji without those things is just a waste of time. You might be able to guess a little at what your reading, but you better hope to god no one ever asks you to read out loud. Maybe I am thinking of some other kanji learning systems, but I was thinking that AJATT specifically gave weird English sentences and you were supposed to write the kanji as best you could (personally the English sentences they use rarely make any sense, and I find it much easier to hear from my Japanese teacher where the kanji originated from and why it looks the way it does rather than implementing the meaning into a sentence that vaguely describes the look). But, you know, whatever works for you is great :D

The idea is to learn the kanjis' appearance and definition first and then the reading later when you encounter them in Japanese content, not to just use the heisig method of learning kanji and stopping.

This approach makes each kanji character and its meaning rock-solid in your mind, and when you go to learn its reading later, you can concentrate solely on learning its reading instead of mentally juggling the appearance, definition, and reading all at once.

Work smarter, not harder.


Offline mgz

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 10561
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #126 on: May 06, 2009, 03:24:07 AM »
Sorry, I was banned for a week, sorry to the mod I pissed off! But all amends have been mended, all wrongs righted, and any insults retracted, so I'm back in business!

Anerph, again I'm just going to sound like a brainwashed AJATTer, but I think that Remembering the Kanji is the only really effective way to learn kanji. And learning kanji is incredibly important, if you want to read and write. Knowing (at least) all the joyo is going to be vital, if you want to learn the language. Having to rely on furigana is not a solution. Lots of publications (including most seinen manga) have none whatsoever. It's like an adult not learning how to ride a bike, and peddeling around with trainer wheels. Sure, it gets the job done, but you look like a silly, silly person. For how easy they are to learn, it seems silly not to learn them all.

Having said that, I'm only up to 460, but it's been easy cruising so far, so I'm upping my rates. Should be done by July.
just thought i would point out that there are A LOT of adults who have never ridden a bike

Offline Aneroph

  • Member
  • Posts: 2090
  • 笑顔で暗闇
    • Deviantart
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #127 on: May 06, 2009, 03:35:23 AM »
@yellowtable: Doesn't AJATT only tell you the meaning of the kanji and not the actual "on" and "kun" readings? To me, learning kanji without those things is just a waste of time. You might be able to guess a little at what your reading, but you better hope to god no one ever asks you to read out loud. Maybe I am thinking of some other kanji learning systems, but I was thinking that AJATT specifically gave weird English sentences and you were supposed to write the kanji as best you could (personally the English sentences they use rarely make any sense, and I find it much easier to hear from my Japanese teacher where the kanji originated from and why it looks the way it does rather than implementing the meaning into a sentence that vaguely describes the look). But, you know, whatever works for you is great :D

The idea is to learn the kanjis' appearance and definition first and then the reading later when you encounter them in Japanese content, not to just use the heisig method of learning kanji and stopping.

This approach makes each kanji character and its meaning rock-solid in your mind, and when you go to learn its reading later, you can concentrate solely on learning its reading instead of mentally juggling the appearance, definition, and reading all at once.

Work smarter, not harder.



Yet again, an AJATT lover hops in to say "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY AND ALL OTHER WAYS ARE POINTLESS AND STUPID!". I guess it's pretty much pointless to post here anymore if we can't keep open minds about other methods. *stops watching topic*

Offline iindigo

  • Member
  • Posts: 2066
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #128 on: May 06, 2009, 03:36:58 AM »
Yet again, an AJATT lover hops in to say "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY AND ALL OTHER WAYS ARE POINTLESS AND STUPID!". I guess it's pretty much pointless to post here anymore if we can't keep open minds about other methods. *stops watching topic*

*sigh* I didn't say that. I'm just saying that AJATT isn't as pointless/incomplete/etc as you seem to think.


Offline yellowtable

  • Member
  • Posts: 32
  • Take my avatar, but you can't take my freedom!
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #129 on: May 06, 2009, 03:46:33 AM »
@yellowtable: Doesn't AJATT only tell you the meaning of the kanji and not the actual "on" and "kun" readings? To me, learning kanji without those things is just a waste of time. You might be able to guess a little at what your reading, but you better hope to god no one ever asks you to read out loud. Maybe I am thinking of some other kanji learning systems, but I was thinking that AJATT specifically gave weird English sentences and you were supposed to write the kanji as best you could (personally the English sentences they use rarely make any sense, and I find it much easier to hear from my Japanese teacher where the kanji originated from and why it looks the way it does rather than implementing the meaning into a sentence that vaguely describes the look). But, you know, whatever works for you is great :D

Learning both (kanji + readings) at the same time makes it incredibly time consuming, compared to learning the english keywords. There's no way you can use mnemonics with the readings for the characters if you are learning new words to go along with them. If you learn all the kanji within two months, using RTK (something which is unthinkable using other methods), then you don't even think about 'learning the readings'. It becomes like learning a language with an alphabet. Even easier, actually, since there (as far as I know) no spelling exceptions. And since you already have an idea of what it means, based on the keyword, it makes it a heck of a lot easier. So, by putting RTK on the front of your language studies, you reduce learning Japanese writing to something easier than learning alphabetic languages. From the writing aspect.

For example, my brother has been learning Mandarin at university for three years. He's still learning new Hanzi every week, after all this time. He could have easily got it out the way within two months before he started (if Remembering the Hanzi was out back then...). No 'learning the readings' would have to be done, you pick them up easily and naturally. You see the reading, and associate it with the keyword you have in your head, and you don't think about it twice.

It seems kind of illogical (initially), but look at the results. People using the AJATT/RTK method aren't able speak a single (well, not many...) word of Japanese for the first few months. While the people using the school/university method get their first few hundred kanji/readings out the way. The AJATTers, after the 2042 kanji are learned, then learn readings as they look at sentences, keeping up their rate of going 10x faster (literally, I'm using my brother as an example here... and he's learning Mandarin, which only has one reading per character. I'm pretty sure.), without having to do any drilling.

Again, I'm only starting down the road (but I'm already up to 500 kanji, compared to whatever I said last time). So I haven't experienced the whole thing first hand yet. However, as my philosophy class says, you can't attack an argument because the speaker has not lived up to his argument. But look at all the AJATT success stories, and you'll see I'm not just ranting here. Well ok, maybe a little ;)


Offline Tatsujin

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 15632
    • Otakixus
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #130 on: May 06, 2009, 09:15:13 AM »
@yellowtable: Doesn't AJATT only tell you the meaning of the kanji and not the actual "on" and "kun" readings? To me, learning kanji without those things is just a waste of time. You might be able to guess a little at what your reading, but you better hope to god no one ever asks you to read out loud. Maybe I am thinking of some other kanji learning systems, but I was thinking that AJATT specifically gave weird English sentences and you were supposed to write the kanji as best you could (personally the English sentences they use rarely make any sense, and I find it much easier to hear from my Japanese teacher where the kanji originated from and why it looks the way it does rather than implementing the meaning into a sentence that vaguely describes the look). But, you know, whatever works for you is great :D

The idea is to learn the kanjis' appearance and definition first and then the reading later when you encounter them in Japanese content, not to just use the heisig method of learning kanji and stopping.

This approach makes each kanji character and its meaning rock-solid in your mind, and when you go to learn its reading later, you can concentrate solely on learning its reading instead of mentally juggling the appearance, definition, and reading all at once.

Work smarter, not harder.


Would you learn the Kanji's meaning with ON or KUN? ... wouldn't KUN make it easier?


¸¸,.-~*'¨¨¨™¤¦ Otakixus ¦¤™¨¨¨'*~-.,¸¸

Offline iindigo

  • Member
  • Posts: 2066
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #131 on: May 06, 2009, 10:51:54 AM »
I'm really not sure, I haven't gotten that far yet.


Offline altlavista

  • Member
  • Posts: 88
  • How it's become a dress?!
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #132 on: May 10, 2009, 06:58:32 PM »
i really think i'm going to be slapped for this;
can you translate kanji?
(click to show/hide)

Offline Atun

  • Member
  • Posts: 30
  • Attero Dominatus
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #133 on: May 10, 2009, 09:27:15 PM »
Using some books from the local library at the moment to try to learn some basic Japanese.
I'm also like many others picking up words and phrases from watching subbed anime.

Also attending a 6 month course of learning Japanese this autumn. If I find it interesting I will also think about taking more advanced courses. ;)
Wants to change visible forum name, I'm never making an account at 4am again.

Offline psyren

  • Member
  • Posts: 11718
  • Ангелы и демоны кружили надо мной...
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #134 on: May 11, 2009, 05:50:49 AM »
i really think i'm going to be slapped for this;
can you translate kanji?
(click to show/hide)
*slap*

That's not even kanji.

The text says (presumably) 'yan yan'. Either she's saying it because she's embarrassed, or it's some kind of sound effect.

Hold Nothing: If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet your ancestor, kill your ancestor. Free of everything, bound by nothing, live your life as it is.
Click here if you can't play h264 encodes

Offline neverthecat

  • Member
  • Posts: 7
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #135 on: May 12, 2009, 02:22:18 PM »
well me being a poor person I have to find resources in books at the library( when I have the time) and some half-assed confusing online resources. One thing I've realised about japanese and the reason it is so difficult to learn is that its a very permeable language and the words can be used in many different ways. not to mention the sentence structure is different than english (subject object verb instead of subject verb object) so can anyone direct me to a well versed, not so confusing, free resource for learning japanese?

Offline Aneroph

  • Member
  • Posts: 2090
  • 笑顔で暗闇
    • Deviantart
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #136 on: May 12, 2009, 03:07:40 PM »
well me being a poor person I have to find resources in books at the library( when I have the time) and some half-assed confusing online resources. One thing I've realised about japanese and the reason it is so difficult to learn is that its a very permeable language and the words can be used in many different ways. not to mention the sentence structure is different than english (subject object verb instead of subject verb object) so can anyone direct me to a well versed, not so confusing, free resource for learning japanese?

Your not really going to find amazing resources to 'learn' Japanese online, but there are a ton of websites that will 'help' in your Japanese learning.

jisho.org - best J-E E-J Dictionary I have found with a database on Kanji and an easy kanji look up chart.
smart.fm - A lot of user made flash cards from just about any Japanese learning books you can think of as well as games and laerning systems. You can use this as a standalone, but it works better if you own the book.
lang8 - write journal entries in your language of study and native speakers will come by and correct it and comment. (for advanced students).
Wikipedia of course has the entire list of Joyou kanji and more that you can always use for resource or throw into flash cards.
Just google some RAW manga sites if you are looking to read in Japanese. Some even have the Furigana which can help in learning.

As much as I'm sure you hate to hear this, just watching anime in Japanese with subs really isn't going to help you unless you already know some decent Japanese and can watch without subs to help your listening skills. These are just a few websites that I find pretty helpful.

Offline neverthecat

  • Member
  • Posts: 7
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #137 on: May 12, 2009, 03:15:58 PM »
well me being a poor person I have to find resources in books at the library( when I have the time) and some half-assed confusing online resources. One thing I've realised about japanese and the reason it is so difficult to learn is that its a very permeable language and the words can be used in many different ways. not to mention the sentence structure is different than english (subject object verb instead of subject verb object) so can anyone direct me to a well versed, not so confusing, free resource for learning japanese?

Your not really going to find amazing resources to 'learn' Japanese online, but there are a ton of websites that will 'help' in your Japanese learning.

jisho.org - best J-E E-J Dictionary I have found with a database on Kanji and an easy kanji look up chart.
smart.fm - A lot of user made flash cards from just about any Japanese learning books you can think of as well as games and laerning systems. You can use this as a standalone, but it works better if you own the book.
lang8 - write journal entries in your language of study and native speakers will come by and correct it and comment. (for advanced students).
Wikipedia of course has the entire list of Joyou kanji and more that you can always use for resource or throw into flash cards.
Just google some RAW manga sites if you are looking to read in Japanese. Some even have the Furigana which can help in learning.

As much as I'm sure you hate to hear this, just watching anime in Japanese with subs really isn't going to help you unless you already know some decent Japanese and can watch without subs to help your listening skills. These are just a few websites that I find pretty helpful.

well thank you very much ^^ and yes I know learning the language from an anime is not the most intelligent thing to do. I mean thinking from a logical stand point most anime being a form of entertainment wouldn't use proper proper japanese (which in my opinion you should learn before slang) they prefer slang. also due to the fact that japanese is so quick and often words are used for many reasons so you cant be sure the word you hear is the right word. *learning from anime subs fails* well I'm ranting now (because I'm tired of people telling me to watch anime to learn more japanese D:<) thank you again.

Offline ilk3000

  • Member
  • Posts: 415
  • L33t Ballroom Ninja
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #138 on: May 21, 2009, 05:04:38 PM »
That's very true. I've been watching anime for a decade and I never picked up anything except for exclamations and short phrases I looked up later until I started learning Japanese.
“Atheism is religion the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.”

Offline moonlight

  • Member
  • Posts: 415
    • Onegai Sites Tour
Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #139 on: May 22, 2009, 11:31:51 AM »
That's very true. I've been watching anime for a decade and I never picked up anything except for exclamations and short phrases I looked up later until I started learning Japanese.

Watching anime really does help in learning Japanese. You'll notice it when you start learning vocabulary, like half of the words you know already somehow ~_^

Right now I'm following a really fast Japanese course at Komaba Campus, sadly enough I won't be in Japan long enough to complete the course... ...
(click to show/hide)