Author Topic: Learning Japanese  (Read 29754 times)

Offline Aneroph

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #140 on: May 22, 2009, 01:42:16 PM »
That's very true. I've been watching anime for a decade and I never picked up anything except for exclamations and short phrases I looked up later until I started learning Japanese.

Watching anime really does help in learning Japanese. You'll notice it when you start learning vocabulary, like half of the words you know already somehow ~_^

Right now I'm following a really fast Japanese course at Komaba Campus, sadly enough I won't be in Japan long enough to complete the course... ...

I think you need to know low-moderate amount of Japanese before anime can really help you though. Subbers don't always use correct translations (especially if your going with DVD hardsubs), and they tend to Americanize some things. However, once you hit a certain point in your Japanese learning, watching anime can help in learning vocab and help with listening skills. I find it fun to find those horrible subs that are actually captions for the English dub version that were thrown in as a translation for Japanese, and then laugh at how horribly the English dub must have been.

Offline yellowtable

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #141 on: May 22, 2009, 10:53:44 PM »
If you went all out, watching Japanese, unsubbed anime 24/7, then you could pick it up without any other lessons. After years, of course. However, most people don't spend anywhere this much time being immersed in Japanese, and using subs is basically the same as listening to english audio.

But if you do get a good feel for the grammar first, examining individual sentences, then watching unsubbed, jap audio anime really helps you.

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #142 on: May 22, 2009, 11:16:05 PM »
If you went all out, watching Japanese, unsubbed anime 24/7, then you could pick it up without any other lessons. After years, of course. However, most people don't spend anywhere this much time being immersed in Japanese, and using subs is basically the same as listening to english audio.

But if you do get a good feel for the grammar first, examining individual sentences, then watching unsubbed, jap audio anime really helps you.
agree. i'm examining individual sentences and picking up sentences from anime.


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Offline Aneroph

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #143 on: May 23, 2009, 12:01:14 AM »
If you went all out, watching Japanese, unsubbed anime 24/7, then you could pick it up. After years, of course. However, most people don't spend anywhere this much time being immersed in Japanese, and using subs is basically the same as listening to english audio.

But if you do get a good feel for the grammar first, examining individual sentences, then watching unsubbed, jap audio anime really helps you.

I find that hard to believe...or at least, the first part you said. Imagine not knowing any English, being shoved into America, or more specifically, a small town in America where no one speaks any language that you understand. The only way they have to convey things to you is through body language and pictures (which was the first human language anyways). You would have the nice advantage of having someone point to a vase and say "vase" or point to a fridge and say "fridge" or draw a picture of someone running and say "run". You don't have this with anime. Most of what is said does not apply to the pictures being shown on screen nor are they pointing to nouns or making pictures of verbs or adjectives and telling you what they are. Without independent study based on what you have seen in the anime, I would venture to say you only get a handful of vocab, very little if any grammar, and maybe a decent number of common phrases that you may or may not know the different subtle meanings to. Maybe I'm just thinking about this in the wrong way...anyone care to explain it to me from a different perspective?

I forgot to mention that watching anime nonstop without subs when you don't know what is being said is also a great way to ruin some good series, as well as it is very boring to just watch someone speaking nonsense all day that you don't understand :P

Offline yellowtable

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #144 on: May 23, 2009, 05:02:18 AM »
I find that hard to believe...or at least, the first part you said. Imagine not knowing any English, being shoved into America, or more specifically, a small town in America where no one speaks any language that you understand. The only way they have to convey things to you is through body language and pictures (which was the first human language anyways). You would have the nice advantage of having someone point to a vase and say "vase" or point to a fridge and say "fridge" or draw a picture of someone running and say "run". You don't have this with anime. Most of what is said does not apply to the pictures being shown on screen nor are they pointing to nouns or making pictures of verbs or adjectives and telling you what they are. Without independent study based on what you have seen in the anime, I would venture to say you only get a handful of vocab, very little if any grammar, and maybe a decent number of common phrases that you may or may not know the different subtle meanings to. Maybe I'm just thinking about this in the wrong way...anyone care to explain it to me from a different perspective?

I forgot to mention that watching anime nonstop without subs when you don't know what is being said is also a great way to ruin some good series, as well as it is very boring to just watch someone speaking nonsense all day that you don't understand :P

Of course, I wasn't really suggesting that watching anime 24/7 is a viable way to learn. But being completely immersed in an environment, is exactly how you learned your first language.

I know it seems strange, but just listening passively is how you learned 99% of your vocabulary. For sure, body language did help for words like 'mummy' and 'daddy', and some other nouns you might have been 'pointed' at. But did you get any assistance in body language, being 'taught' how to say 'my name is *insert name*'? Nup, there was no help there, not even people talking it to you in baby talk and expecting you to repeat back. You learned how to say it just by hearing people around you say it, to each other, as native speakers of the language.

And of course, babies learned by doing this. Dumb babies! Honestly, have you seen how dumb they are? Their brains are TINY! Adults have the power to think about things, and to fit together any rules of grammar they might pick up. So, I'd even say that it would work even better for adults, if you chose to literally watch it, live it and breathe it every second of your life for a year or two. You already have a language down in your head, so you know how at least one language works, and you have a lot more intelligence than babies.

Although this is how the AJATT method works. Of course, while Khatz says to immerse yourself 24/7, adults (and students) have busy lives, and can't be completely focussed on the input they are receiving. But just having it in the background playing helps towards assimilating the language.

Oh, and on a final note, I always watch an anime with subs the first time round. I'm currently going through Clannad and Gundam SEED subbed, first time round. But after I've finished a series, I'll always rewatch it. Usually never straight afterwards, or even in the right order. This will of course change, when I can listen well enough to get a decent hold on what's going on without subs. Boring, rewatching anime? I don't think so, especially when you're concentrating on the language the second time around. And notice, I've only got a few series, so might as well make the most of my DVD money :D


« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 05:10:24 AM by yellowtable »

Offline iindigo

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #145 on: May 23, 2009, 11:25:06 AM »
One thing that I noticed about rewatching anime without subs is that you get to see a lot more of the art. It's really quite surprising how much of it you miss when reading subs.

So there's another reason rewatching anime with the purpose of immersion wouldn't really be boring. You're going to see and notice things that you didn't in the first run.


Offline virionspiral

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #146 on: May 28, 2009, 08:42:40 AM »
If you went all out, watching Japanese, unsubbed anime 24/7, then you could pick it up. After years, of course. However, most people don't spend anywhere this much time being immersed in Japanese, and using subs is basically the same as listening to english audio.

But if you do get a good feel for the grammar first, examining individual sentences, then watching unsubbed, jap audio anime really helps you.

I find that hard to believe...or at least, the first part you said. Imagine not knowing any English, being shoved into America, or more specifically, a small town in America where no one speaks any language that you understand. The only way they have to convey things to you is through body language and pictures (which was the first human language anyways). You would have the nice advantage of having someone point to a vase and say "vase" or point to a fridge and say "fridge" or draw a picture of someone running and say "run". You don't have this with anime. Most of what is said does not apply to the pictures being shown on screen nor are they pointing to nouns or making pictures of verbs or adjectives and telling you what they are. Without independent study based on what you have seen in the anime, I would venture to say you only get a handful of vocab, very little if any grammar, and maybe a decent number of common phrases that you may or may not know the different subtle meanings to. Maybe I'm just thinking about this in the wrong way...anyone care to explain it to me from a different perspective?

I forgot to mention that watching anime nonstop without subs when you don't know what is being said is also a great way to ruin some good series, as well as it is very boring to just watch someone speaking nonsense all day that you don't understand :P

i completely agree with you anerph. there is no way.. without someone pointing out things or you being able to question them.. like saying 'how do you say' or 'what does this mean'.. full immersion where you're dropped into the place you will have a better chance, but you'll never understand a different language just listening to it 24 hours a day. do parrots understand their masters?.. i doubt it.


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Offline iindigo

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #147 on: May 28, 2009, 10:12:21 AM »
If you went all out, watching Japanese, unsubbed anime 24/7, then you could pick it up. After years, of course. However, most people don't spend anywhere this much time being immersed in Japanese, and using subs is basically the same as listening to english audio.

But if you do get a good feel for the grammar first, examining individual sentences, then watching unsubbed, jap audio anime really helps you.

I find that hard to believe...or at least, the first part you said. Imagine not knowing any English, being shoved into America, or more specifically, a small town in America where no one speaks any language that you understand. The only way they have to convey things to you is through body language and pictures (which was the first human language anyways). You would have the nice advantage of having someone point to a vase and say "vase" or point to a fridge and say "fridge" or draw a picture of someone running and say "run". You don't have this with anime. Most of what is said does not apply to the pictures being shown on screen nor are they pointing to nouns or making pictures of verbs or adjectives and telling you what they are. Without independent study based on what you have seen in the anime, I would venture to say you only get a handful of vocab, very little if any grammar, and maybe a decent number of common phrases that you may or may not know the different subtle meanings to. Maybe I'm just thinking about this in the wrong way...anyone care to explain it to me from a different perspective?

I forgot to mention that watching anime nonstop without subs when you don't know what is being said is also a great way to ruin some good series, as well as it is very boring to just watch someone speaking nonsense all day that you don't understand :P

i completely agree with you anerph. there is no way.. without someone pointing out things or you being able to question them.. like saying 'how do you say' or 'what does this mean'.. full immersion where you're dropped into the place you will have a better chance, but you'll never understand a different language just listening to it 24 hours a day. do parrots understand their masters?.. i doubt it.

Well no, you won't learn from immersion alone, but it certainly helps.

Also, there's a key difference between a parrot and a human: a human has a vastly larger amount of intelligence and most likely a decently-sized chunk of past knowledge backing him up, allowing him to grab definitions out of context and infer meanings based on other things.


Offline virionspiral

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #148 on: May 28, 2009, 11:22:45 AM »
If you went all out, watching Japanese, unsubbed anime 24/7, then you could pick it up. After years, of course. However, most people don't spend anywhere this much time being immersed in Japanese, and using subs is basically the same as listening to english audio.

But if you do get a good feel for the grammar first, examining individual sentences, then watching unsubbed, jap audio anime really helps you.

I find that hard to believe...or at least, the first part you said. Imagine not knowing any English, being shoved into America, or more specifically, a small town in America where no one speaks any language that you understand. The only way they have to convey things to you is through body language and pictures (which was the first human language anyways). You would have the nice advantage of having someone point to a vase and say "vase" or point to a fridge and say "fridge" or draw a picture of someone running and say "run". You don't have this with anime. Most of what is said does not apply to the pictures being shown on screen nor are they pointing to nouns or making pictures of verbs or adjectives and telling you what they are. Without independent study based on what you have seen in the anime, I would venture to say you only get a handful of vocab, very little if any grammar, and maybe a decent number of common phrases that you may or may not know the different subtle meanings to. Maybe I'm just thinking about this in the wrong way...anyone care to explain it to me from a different perspective?

I forgot to mention that watching anime nonstop without subs when you don't know what is being said is also a great way to ruin some good series, as well as it is very boring to just watch someone speaking nonsense all day that you don't understand :P

i completely agree with you anerph. there is no way.. without someone pointing out things or you being able to question them.. like saying 'how do you say' or 'what does this mean'.. full immersion where you're dropped into the place you will have a better chance, but you'll never understand a different language just listening to it 24 hours a day. do parrots understand their masters?.. i doubt it.

Well no, you won't learn from immersion alone, but it certainly helps.

Also, there's a key difference between a parrot and a human: a human has a vastly larger amount of intelligence and most likely a decently-sized chunk of past knowledge backing him up, allowing him to grab definitions out of context and infer meanings based on other things.



true, yet if you don't know the language at all and are basically just hearing it, there is no way to gather it out of context.

either way combining every learning method together to match your particular learning style is the best.. i guess you could say i just started when i read through this thread last night.. i downloaded that slime forest and so far i have learned 150 kanji.. i can recognize, know the meaning and i have retained it after sleeping. so far this is pretty easy. i figure i'm going to learn the meaning of all the kanji i can then learn reading.. then learn pronunciation, and then speaking and grammar together.. that seems like the best way for me.. but hell, i just started in the last 24 hours so.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 11:25:26 AM by virionspiral »


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Offline psyren

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #149 on: May 28, 2009, 11:56:07 AM »
so far i have learned 150 kanji.. i can recognize, know the meaning and i have retained it after sleeping. so far this is pretty easy.
I call bullshit on that.
You know 150 KANJI?
Tell me what 町 is, then.

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Offline virionspiral

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #150 on: May 28, 2009, 12:22:22 PM »
so far i have learned 150 kanji.. i can recognize, know the meaning and i have retained it after sleeping. so far this is pretty easy.
I call bullshit on that.
You know 150 KANJI?
Tell me what 町 is, then.

village.


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Offline psyren

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #151 on: May 28, 2009, 12:23:58 PM »
I still don't believe you learnt 150 kanji in one sitting.

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Offline virionspiral

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #152 on: May 28, 2009, 12:30:25 PM »
okay.. it's easy when most of them look alike..

let's take the easy ones.. the numbers.. 1-10.. 100.. 1000.. 10000.. yen.  bug.. and sky.. put those together.. you get silkworm.. tree and eye.. you get 'together'.. recognizing these symbols is easy. there's 20 just right there.


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Offline psyren

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #153 on: May 28, 2009, 12:32:37 PM »
You have got to be a genius O__o

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Offline virionspiral

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #154 on: May 28, 2009, 12:34:27 PM »
nah.. that damn game.. is brilliant.. that game 'slime forest'.. man what would make that shit the best. is when you're doing the battles when the symbol pops up and you type it out then your character attacks, at that point they need to say what it means audibly.. that way i'd learn this even quicker..


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Offline psyren

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #155 on: May 28, 2009, 12:35:47 PM »
I've seen other people try that game and not get as far as you... perhaps I should give it a go.

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Offline virionspiral

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #156 on: May 28, 2009, 12:40:20 PM »
man.. i'd recommend it.. i'm able to recognize the symbols.. it's just like flash cards but to me it's more helpful since it's an rpg.. i interact with it more.. i'm going to also use some time to write these down over and over.. that way i can learn to write them. but i swear it's so easy with this game.

what other things would you recommend to use to learn?


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Offline psyren

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #157 on: May 28, 2009, 12:42:15 PM »
A dictionary :P

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Offline virionspiral

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #158 on: May 28, 2009, 12:44:40 PM »
hahahah. i'm going to go to barnes and noble later and pick up maybe a dictionary and one of those books that have like cd's with them. i saw one that looked respectable a few months back but wasn't as interested as i am now.


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Offline yellowtable

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Re: Learning Japanese
« Reply #159 on: May 29, 2009, 12:25:22 PM »
Use Heisig instead. You can learn 150 kanji per day easily, if you are studying full time. And you can learn how to WRITE them, not just recognise them. The difference is huge.