Learning Japanese

[jamienumber9]

Np

I dunno if it's been posted or not, but google "rikaichan". It's a plugin for firefox that automatically translates japanese that you mouse-over. It's great if you know grammar, but not certain words, or know words but not their Kanji etc. You do really need some grammar skills for it to be really useful though. It really helps for reading japanese pages.

[Aneroph]

I bought "Japanese for busy people" when I first tried teaching myself. It was okay I suppose, a lot of the sentences they used were a bit odd or a bit old but it did allow me to learn Hiragana katakana and about 20 kanji before I went into classes. After going into classes I have found many good resources. The book we use is Nakama which is fairly good (better if you have a teacher). Here is a list of some helpful stuff:

www.jisho.org - A GREAT dictionary. You can type in Japanese or English and find any detail you can imagine.
www.lang-8.com - A free journal website where you write whatever you want in your language of study and people native to the language will correct it with red/blue text and crossouts, additions, subtractions, etc. It doesn't change your original post so you don't have to worry about it. They can also give you helpful comments. This is more for the advanced learners though.
www.smart.fm - A good site to study words and kanji for specific books and a little more. There are even word games you can play to help your memorization. If you register then you can make your own list of words/kanji and play the games with your specific words.

[yellowtable]

I've bought into the AJATT ideology, I don't think that studying from a 'teach yourself' book or software will really get you very far. If you really want to learn the language, then full immersion, learning the kanji and imitating native speakers is the only way to actually learn a language. So no learning grammar rules etc, just getting used to them after repeating examples a trillion times.

I'm only learning the kanji at the moment (I'm up to 250, but it's incredibly easy, and has only taken me two weeks), so I can't really say if it works or not yet. But visit the website, and make your own mind up. I'm certainly going for native proficiency, rather than just being able to get by and sounding like a noob foreigner.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/

[Aneroph]

I've bought into the AJATT ideology, I don't think that studying from a 'teach yourself' book or software will really get you very far. If you really want to learn the language, then full immersion, learning the kanji and imitating native speakers is the only way to actually learn a language. So no learning grammar rules etc, just getting used to them after repeating examples a trillion times.

I'm only learning the kanji at the moment (I'm up to 250, but it's incredibly easy, and has only taken me two weeks), so I can't really say if it works or not yet. But visit the website, and make your own mind up. I'm certainly going for native proficiency, rather than just being able to get by and sounding like a noob foreigner.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/

Grammar is the basics for expressing yourself in your own words. Without grammar you are just repeating what everyone else has already said. Immersion is great, but should really be combined with formal teaching or else you really are not going to learn a lot of the basics, a lot of grammar, and a lot of rules. Of course, the same can be said about teaching. Formal teaching should be combined with a bit of immersion to help with listening and speaking skills. Self study should, and is used with both of these forms of learning, but is pretty much useless by itself.

[yellowtable]

Grammar is the basics for expressing yourself in your own words. Without grammar you are just repeating what everyone else has already said. Immersion is great, but should really be combined with formal teaching or else you really are not going to learn a lot of the basics, a lot of grammar, and a lot of rules. Of course, the same can be said about teaching. Formal teaching should be combined with a bit of immersion to help with listening and speaking skills. Self study should, and is used with both of these forms of learning, but is pretty much useless by itself.

It's not that you don't learn the grammar, you just learn it passively and naturally. So you don't think about it, you just assimilate it. This might sound as if it's the shakey way around, but it's quite the opposite. Learning it naturally, you get a feel for it, and can predict where exceptions fit in, not having to think about it. But I can't explain it as well as the site creator can, so check out the website, particularly the articles 'why lessons suck' and so on.

Funnily enough, I've learned a language just from a book and a few audio lessons. But that language is esperanto (kiun mi parolas flue  ), which has no exceptions, and very few grammar rules anyway. For learning a natural language, it just doesn't work.

[Tatsujin]

Grammar is the basics for expressing yourself in your own words. Without grammar you are just repeating what everyone else has already said. Immersion is great, but should really be combined with formal teaching or else you really are not going to learn a lot of the basics, a lot of grammar, and a lot of rules. Of course, the same can be said about teaching. Formal teaching should be combined with a bit of immersion to help with listening and speaking skills. Self study should, and is used with both of these forms of learning, but is pretty much useless by itself.

It's not that you don't learn the grammar, you just learn it passively and naturally. So you don't think about it, you just assimilate it. This might sound as if it's the shakey way around, but it's quite the opposite. Learning it naturally, you get a feel for it, and can predict where exceptions fit in, not having to think about it. But I can't explain it as well as the site creator can, so check out the website, particularly the articles 'why lessons suck' and so on.

Funnily enough, I've learned a language just from a book and a few audio lessons. But that language is esperanto (kiun mi parolas flue  ), which has no exceptions, and very few grammar rules anyway. For learning a natural language, it just doesn't work.

Did I mention myself before? English is my 2nd language, I only took English in my country for like a year and we only learned the ABC's, how ot say hi, good morning, afternoon, good bye and that is it. I came to the US and I was taken to a class for two freaking years, the lady only taught me what words mean and she didn't teach me shit about grammar and that was only in 7th and 8th grade. I learned grammar on my own from playing games, watching shows, and listening to everyday conversations from people. I was shy to speak alot in 9th grade, but in 10th grade I started to speak more and more and my grammar kept improving. So I learned English grammar on my own, and English pronoun-cation is the shittiest I have to experience because I didn't have so much experience with it too and I hate pronouncing stuff in English. Japanese is easier, the only two things you need to nail down is 1) Kanji and 2) grammar. Hiragana and Katakana are a must as well but they're fairly easy. Kanji and grammar are the main dish course.

[voltekka]

I originally tried to learn the kana the way I'm sure a lot of you did, in dictionary order, a i u e o, ka ki ku ke ko, et cetera. Then I thought about it a bit, got a hold of a couple PDFs containing Heisig's remembering the kana, and learned them out of order. I didn't use the mnemonics the books are famous for, just learned them in that order. I spent a day on Hiragana, and a day on Katakana, with only a few hours of actual study time. Ever since then, I've been able to read both scripts without any trouble. That's right, just changing the method, instead of taking more than a month to learn them, they each took only a few hours. They're really easy if you study them this way, at least in my experience.

Right after learning them, I would quiz myself at random times. I'd wake up and immediately write the scripts down in their entirety. I'd transliterate songs from romaji to kana and back with a pencil and paper. I'd read text, even if I couldn't understand what it meant just yet. This greatly improved my recognition speed, and at this time I can read kana at least as fast as I can speak it if not faster.

As for the language, I taught myself a fair amount of grammar through various means and through Tae Kim's guide. I learned a lot of different words just by listening. I can speak, read, and write at least enough to get around (I put that to the test this past summer, staying a month in Japan alone).

Going a bit off track here; the point is, those of you learning the kana, don't learn them in dictionary order! This is the most common mistake I see. People who learn them this way tend to have trouble remembering them individually, which makes them harder to memorize and slower to recall as a whole -- they remember them in sets. When you're trying to read/write "ke", you should NOT remember "ka", "ki", and "ku" first. Do you remember a, b, and c before you remember d in English?

Also, it's not that important I suppose, but I don't recommend learning the voiced/plosive versions until after you have all the core characters down. That is, dont bother with "ga", "da", and "pa" until after you've already learned everything, including their sources, "ka", "ta", and "ha". They'll come easily enough later.

Anyhow, I never really intended to post here, but seeing so many people looking to learn kana and taking the usual route, I thought I'd offer another one I found so much easier and more effective.

Have fun.

[Tatsujin]

I originally tried to learn the kana the way I'm sure a lot of you did, in dictionary order, a i u e o, ka ki ku ke ko, et cetera. Then I thought about it a bit, got a hold of a couple PDFs containing Heisig's remembering the kana, and learned them out of order. I didn't use the mnemonics the books are famous for, just learned them in that order. I spent a day on Hiragana, and a day on Katakana, with only a few hours of actual study time. Ever since then, I've been able to read both scripts without any trouble. That's right, just changing the method, instead of taking more than a month to learn them, they each took only a few hours. They're really easy if you study them this way, at least in my experience.

Right after learning them, I would quiz myself at random times. I'd wake up and immediately write the scripts down in their entirety. I'd transliterate songs from romaji to kana and back with a pencil and paper. I'd read text, even if I couldn't understand what it meant just yet. This greatly improved my recognition speed, and at this time I can read kana at least as fast as I can speak it if not faster.

As for the language, I taught myself a fair amount of grammar through various means and through Tae Kim's guide. I learned a lot of different words just by listening. I can speak, read, and write at least enough to get around (I put that to the test this past summer, staying a month in Japan alone).

Going a bit off track here; the point is, those of you learning the kana, don't learn them in dictionary order! This is the most common mistake I see. People who learn them this way tend to have trouble remembering them individually, which makes them harder to memorize and slower to recall as a whole -- they remember them in sets. When you're trying to read/write "ke", you should NOT remember "ka", "ki", and "ku" first. Do you remember a, b, and c before you remember d in English?

Also, it's not that important I suppose, but I don't recommend learning the voiced/plosive versions until after you have all the core characters down. That is, dont bother with "ga", "da", and "pa" until after you've already learned everything, including their sources, "ka", "ta", and "ha". They'll come easily enough later.

Anyhow, I never really intended to post here, but seeing so many people looking to learn kana and taking the usual route, I thought I'd offer another one I found so much easier and more effective.

Have fun.

and also, the best way is to find the way you most feel comfortable about. out of order/random is really a must. and once you know the romaji for the japanese character you are studying, implement the vowels/sound and character appearance in your head and forget the romaji, focus on speaking the japanese character and start thinking japanese rather than trying to translate it into english or whatever. i'm tired.

[iindigo]

I've bought into the AJATT ideology, I don't think that studying from a 'teach yourself' book or software will really get you very far. If you really want to learn the language, then full immersion, learning the kanji and imitating native speakers is the only way to actually learn a language. So no learning grammar rules etc, just getting used to them after repeating examples a trillion times.

I'm only learning the kanji at the moment (I'm up to 250, but it's incredibly easy, and has only taken me two weeks), so I can't really say if it works or not yet. But visit the website, and make your own mind up. I'm certainly going for native proficiency, rather than just being able to get by and sounding like a noob foreigner.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/

Grammar is the basics for expressing yourself in your own words. Without grammar you are just repeating what everyone else has already said. Immersion is great, but should really be combined with formal teaching or else you really are not going to learn a lot of the basics, a lot of grammar, and a lot of rules. Of course, the same can be said about teaching. Formal teaching should be combined with a bit of immersion to help with listening and speaking skills. Self study should, and is used with both of these forms of learning, but is pretty much useless by itself.

Another AJATT guy here. I'm with yellowtable on this one.

Think of it this way: when you were a young one, how did you learn your native tongue? Did you sit down with books and audio tapes to learn it? Didn't think so. You were able to speak pretty proficiently, though, despite not understanding a single mechanic behind the language. This is because you learned through pure immersion (and lots of it). Grammar was something that was taught after you were able to decently make use of your language.

Same goes when learning secondary languages later in life. One should concentrate on becoming able to use their target language at decent proficiency by merely imitating natural speakers before diving into the mess of grammar and such. Learning grammar at the same time as the core language complicates things and stretches the process out for much longer than it would naturally take. Contrary to popular opinion, the language itself is the foundation of speaking and writing it, not grammar.

[jamienumber9]

The best thing about learning it on your own is the fact that you have control over what you learn. In my classes I have had severall "WTF!?" moments (or weeks) where I've thought "what in god's name are they teaching us this for?"

A good example is when, toward the beginning of this semester's new textbook I was reading, translating, and struggling with the text and came across a word that was a little difficult to find - "通り一遍紋切り型". I found it, and it translates to something like 'conventional, stereotyped, formulaic(expression)'. But when I mentioned it to my girlfriend, who is Japanese, she'd never heard of it. She speaks to her mum back in Japan fairly regularly over Skype so she asked her mum about it and was met with a reaction that I assume was something like "えー？". Her mum then went and got their big dictionary off the bookshelf so she could look it up! We are talking a Japanese national who was born and raised there and has lived there for over half a century and she'd never heard this word that I am learning from my textbook.

So yeah, doing it outside of formal classes does have that advantage, but I feel like grammar is fairly important. I definitely like some of the ideas of AJATT, and have decided to take some of them on, like using anki (thanks tatsujin), and I'm going to try listening to Japanese while I sleep, but at the end of the day I feel like my lessons have been very valuable.

Bold = 紋切り型

[voltekka]

Another AJATT guy here. I'm with yellowtable on this one.

Think of it this way: when you were a young one, how did you learn your native tongue? Did you sit down with books and audio tapes to learn it? Didn't think so. You were able to speak pretty proficiently, though, despite not understanding a single mechanic behind the language. This is because you learned through pure immersion (and lots of it). Grammar was something that was taught after you were able to decently make use of your language.

Same goes when learning secondary languages later in life. One should concentrate on becoming able to use their target language at decent proficiency by merely imitating natural speakers before diving into the mess of grammar and such. Learning grammar at the same time as the core language complicates things and stretches the process out for much longer than it would naturally take. Contrary to popular opinion, the language itself is the foundation of speaking and writing it, not grammar.

Of course you're free to learn however you wish, but I would like to mention that it may not be so easy as you may think with just immersion.

It's long been known that children adapt to a language much faster than anyone approaching or in adulthood. It's much easier to learn a language when your brain is still forming. For many, dare I say most, past a certain point learning a language from immersion becomes much, much more difficult than learning it by study. Language is heavily integrated into our thought processes. Generally, when thinking, if any words come to mind they're in English if it's your first language, right? They come extremely quickly, right? We directly associate with the language(s) we learn as a child.

That's not to say if you become familiar with another language certain things won't come to mind in that language (which I have come to know first hand, now, but never expected -- mostly expressions of exasperation with me), just that it's a much longer and harder process than it was when we were still very young and maturing. The older you get the harder it gets, it seems. Traditional study can help this process along exponentially.

I think a mix of immersion and formal study is the best route. It's important to learn the rudiments and rules of the language, and it's also important to have a good sense of familiarity with it, such that you feel comfortable with it -- even if you aren't proficient at that point.

Pick up a grammar book, cram some kanji... but at the same time, listen to some music, talk with friends, listen to conversations, make an effort to use the language in your everyday life. Don't keep anything one way or the other.

[Aneroph]

Of course you're free to learn however you wish, but I would like to mention that it may not be so easy as you may think with just immersion.

It's long been known that children adapt to a language much faster than anyone approaching or in adulthood. It's much easier to learn a language when your brain is still forming. For many, dare I say most, past a certain point learning a language from immersion becomes much, much more difficult than learning it by study. Language is heavily integrated into our thought processes. Generally, when thinking, if any words come to mind they're in English if it's your first language, right? They come extremely quickly, right? We directly associate with the language(s) we learn as a child.

That's not to say if you become familiar with another language certain things won't come to mind in that language (which I have come to know first hand, now, but never expected -- mostly expressions of exasperation with me), just that it's a much longer and harder process than it was when we were still very young and maturing. The older you get the harder it gets, it seems. Traditional study can help this process along exponentially.

I think a mix of immersion and formal study is the best route. It's important to learn the rudiments and rules of the language, and it's also important to have a good sense of familiarity with it, such that you feel comfortable with it -- even if you aren't proficient at that point.

Pick up a grammar book, cram some kanji... but at the same time, listen to some music, talk with friends, listen to conversations, make an effort to use the language in your everyday life. Don't keep anything one way or the other.

I'll say amen to that. My grandfather was in Germany for 2 years when he was in the military so he was immersed in every aspect of the country; however, he only knows like five phrases in German and he is pronouncing them terribly anyways. He also spent a year in the UK and he said by the time he left he was just starting to understand a little of what they were saying, even though they speak English lol.

[Tatsujin]

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-japanese-all-the-time-ajatt-how-to-learn-japanese-on-your-own-having-fun-and-to-fluency

click the links, read on. quit being arrogant and save yourself and us some trouble, yeah?

[voltekka]

Insert Quote
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-japanese-all-the-time-ajatt-how-to-learn-japanese-on-your-own-having-fun-and-to-fluency

click the links, read on. quit being arrogant and save yourself and us some trouble, yeah?

Suppose you're speaking to me? No need to be so pissy, nobody was being pissy with you.

I wasn't commenting on AJATT specifically. I was commenting on the idea that just immersion is the best/only way to go about things. Note the above conversation, where it was stated that it is the ONLY way to learn the language. Note such quotes above: "I don't think that studying from a 'teach yourself' book or software will really get you very far. If you really want to learn the language, then full immersion, learning the kanji and imitating native speakers is the only way to actually learn a language. So no learning grammar rules etc, just getting used to them after repeating examples a trillion times. " and the like.

Perhaps you are being a tad arrogant yourself, jumping to conclusions, no?

[Aneroph]

Well, you guys think whatever you want about immersion, long story short, that website is just a "get rich quick" scheme sort of thing with goals that aren't even attainable. Listening to Japanese 24 hours a day is just not possible. I have a roommate that would just not be happy if I left Japanese playing while I sleep, and earphones would drown out my alarm. Not to mention there are still American things I enjoy doing that this guy would have me completely cut out of my schedule for 18 months or more. Anyways, if you can do it then by all means go ahead, but I can't so I take classes and do immersion sort of things when I can.

I did find something interesting on the site though https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7208 A cool Firefox plugin for learning kanji.

[Tatsujin]

Well, you guys think whatever you want about immersion, long story short, that website is just a "get rich quick" scheme sort of thing with goals that aren't even attainable. Listening to Japanese 24 hours a day is just not possible. I have a roommate that would just not be happy if I left Japanese playing while I sleep, and earphones would drown out my alarm. Not to mention there are still American things I enjoy doing that this guy would have me completely cut out of my schedule for 18 months or more. Anyways, if you can do it then by all means go ahead, but I can't so I take classes and do immersion sort of things when I can.

I did find something interesting on the site though https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7208 A cool Firefox plugin for learning kanji.

stay in your little corner and do your thing, then. and the person from above you can do the same. and honestly, if you haven't read the first couple of chapters of his pages then yea ... that's who you really are.

edit -- one more thing to add, it doesn't have to be his way really ... i'm doing shit similar and somewhat opposite of what he's doing. so if you find a good way to learn a language, japanese specifically, then be happy about it and quit talking down on immersion ... if that is his name.

[Aneroph]

Well, you guys 思hink whatever you want about immersion, 長ong 階tory short, that website is just a "get rich 速uick" 策cheme 然ort of thing with goals that aren't 平ven attainable. Listening to Japanese 24 hours a 日ay is just 勿ot possible. 吾 have a roommate that would just 勿ot be happy if 吾 左eft Japanese playing while 吾 sleep, and earphones would 没rown out my alarm. 勿ot to 述ention there are still American things 吾 enjoy doing that this 奴uy would have 僕e completely 切ut out 之f my schedule for 18 months or more. Anyways, if you 可an 為o it then by 皆ll means 碁o ahead, but 吾 可an't so 吾 取ake classes and 為o immersion 類ort 之f things when 吾 可an.

吾 did find something interesting on the site though https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7208 A 冷ool Firefox plugin for learning kanji.

stay 中n your 小ittle 隅orner and 為o your thing, then. and the 人erson 乃rom 上bove you 可an 為o the 同ame. and honestly, if you 津aven't 読ead the first couple 之f chapters 之f his pages then yea ... that's who you really are.

edit -- 一ne more 物hing to add, it doesn't have to be his way really ... 吾'm doing shit 似imilar and somewhat opposite 之f 何hat 彼e's doing. so if you find a 良ood way to 習earn a language, japanese specifically, then be happy about it and 罷uit talking down on immersion ... if that is his 名ame.

OMG!!! LOL!!!! Immersion isn't his name....it's the type of program he promotes. Here is the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_immersion Even the wiki states that really the only big advantage of the program is in the "Early immersion" programs. I don't mean to say anything bad about immersion because it is a viable form of learning, but I am saying that I feel learning by immersion alone and speeding though it all just isn't really the best answer. However, you seem to just be saying anyone that doesn't learn through immersion is just an idiot with no comprehension of how to learn properly. I have read his site inside and out and even have 3 pages of rantings on another site as to why I think it is just not the completely correct way of going about learning.

[Tatsujin]

Well, you guys 思hink whatever you want about immersion, 長ong 階tory short, that website is just a "get rich 速uick" 策cheme 然ort of thing with goals that aren't 平ven attainable. Listening to Japanese 24 hours a 日ay is just 勿ot possible. 吾 have a roommate that would just 勿ot be happy if 吾 左eft Japanese playing while 吾 sleep, and earphones would 没rown out my alarm. 勿ot to 述ention there are still American things 吾 enjoy doing that this 奴uy would have 僕e completely 切ut out 之f my schedule for 18 months or more. Anyways, if you 可an 為o it then by 皆ll means 碁o ahead, but 吾 可an't so 吾 取ake classes and 為o immersion 類ort 之f things when 吾 可an.

吾 did find something interesting on the site though https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7208 A 冷ool Firefox plugin for learning kanji.

stay 中n your 小ittle 隅orner and 為o your thing, then. and the 人erson 乃rom 上bove you 可an 為o the 同ame. and honestly, if you 津aven't 読ead the first couple 之f chapters 之f his pages then yea ... that's who you really are.

edit -- 一ne more 物hing to add, it doesn't have to be his way really ... 吾'm doing shit 似imilar and somewhat opposite 之f 何hat 彼e's doing. so if you find a 良ood way to 習earn a language, japanese specifically, then be happy about it and 罷uit talking down on immersion ... if that is his 名ame.

OMG!!! LOL!!!! Immersion isn't his name....it's the type of program he promotes. Here is the wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_immersion Even the wiki states that really the only big advantage of the program is in the "Early immersion" programs. I don't mean to say anything bad about immersion because it is a viable form of learning, but I am saying that I feel learning by immersion alone and speeding though it all just isn't really the best answer. However, you seem to just be saying anyone that doesn't learn through immersion is just an idiot with no comprehension of how to learn properly. I have read his site inside and out and even have 3 pages of rantings on another site as to why I think it is just not the completely correct way of going about learning.

Khauz-whatever his name is. Sorry I misunderstood the immersion program. And the Kanji that you've used to mock me ... anyone can actually type that shit unless if you specifically meant to make fun of me. I find it very disturbing to be honest. I don't think we're on good terms now. I won't be coming to this thread to make things easier. Now you have it your way.

Edit -- Nevermind, I thought it was that addon you posted. I've disabled it.

[Aneroph]

Whoa, that was NOT meant to mock you. I am very sorry. That link I posted up above with the firefox kanji learning tool is what I was using. It replaces the first letter in the words with kanji so when I quote you it came through as that. Seriously, though no harm was meant, I didn't realize it was doing that. It was in absolutely no bad taste. My entire post was actually trying to dissolve the little argument, other than laughing at the fact you misunderstood what the immersion program was when we have been discussing it the past few pages.

Seriously though, there was nothing in my last post that was malicious at all. I'm not sure why you would think adding kanji would have been mocking you...it doesn't even make sense. You flew off the deep end waaaaaay too quickly.

[iindigo]

I think what Tatsujin's trying to say is that by forcing ourselves to go with the "traditional book method" without even giving alternatives a try, we're making the language more difficult to learn that it has to be. I don't believe he's insinuating that anybody who doesn't use an alternative method is stupid or anything of that nature.