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Learning Japanese
voltekka:
--- Quote ---Another AJATT guy here. I'm with yellowtable on this one.
Think of it this way: when you were a young one, how did you learn your native tongue? Did you sit down with books and audio tapes to learn it? Didn't think so. You were able to speak pretty proficiently, though, despite not understanding a single mechanic behind the language. This is because you learned through pure immersion (and lots of it). Grammar was something that was taught after you were able to decently make use of your language.
Same goes when learning secondary languages later in life. One should concentrate on becoming able to use their target language at decent proficiency by merely imitating natural speakers before diving into the mess of grammar and such. Learning grammar at the same time as the core language complicates things and stretches the process out for much longer than it would naturally take. Contrary to popular opinion, the language itself is the foundation of speaking and writing it, not grammar.
--- End quote ---
Of course you're free to learn however you wish, but I would like to mention that it may not be so easy as you may think with just immersion.
It's long been known that children adapt to a language much faster than anyone approaching or in adulthood. It's much easier to learn a language when your brain is still forming. For many, dare I say most, past a certain point learning a language from immersion becomes much, much more difficult than learning it by study. Language is heavily integrated into our thought processes. Generally, when thinking, if any words come to mind they're in English if it's your first language, right? They come extremely quickly, right? We directly associate with the language(s) we learn as a child.
That's not to say if you become familiar with another language certain things won't come to mind in that language (which I have come to know first hand, now, but never expected -- mostly expressions of exasperation with me), just that it's a much longer and harder process than it was when we were still very young and maturing. The older you get the harder it gets, it seems. Traditional study can help this process along exponentially.
I think a mix of immersion and formal study is the best route. It's important to learn the rudiments and rules of the language, and it's also important to have a good sense of familiarity with it, such that you feel comfortable with it -- even if you aren't proficient at that point.
Pick up a grammar book, cram some kanji... but at the same time, listen to some music, talk with friends, listen to conversations, make an effort to use the language in your everyday life. Don't keep anything one way or the other.
Aneroph:
--- Quote from: voltekka on April 27, 2009, 10:07:06 PM ---
Of course you're free to learn however you wish, but I would like to mention that it may not be so easy as you may think with just immersion.
It's long been known that children adapt to a language much faster than anyone approaching or in adulthood. It's much easier to learn a language when your brain is still forming. For many, dare I say most, past a certain point learning a language from immersion becomes much, much more difficult than learning it by study. Language is heavily integrated into our thought processes. Generally, when thinking, if any words come to mind they're in English if it's your first language, right? They come extremely quickly, right? We directly associate with the language(s) we learn as a child.
That's not to say if you become familiar with another language certain things won't come to mind in that language (which I have come to know first hand, now, but never expected -- mostly expressions of exasperation with me), just that it's a much longer and harder process than it was when we were still very young and maturing. The older you get the harder it gets, it seems. Traditional study can help this process along exponentially.
I think a mix of immersion and formal study is the best route. It's important to learn the rudiments and rules of the language, and it's also important to have a good sense of familiarity with it, such that you feel comfortable with it -- even if you aren't proficient at that point.
Pick up a grammar book, cram some kanji... but at the same time, listen to some music, talk with friends, listen to conversations, make an effort to use the language in your everyday life. Don't keep anything one way or the other.
--- End quote ---
I'll say amen to that. My grandfather was in Germany for 2 years when he was in the military so he was immersed in every aspect of the country; however, he only knows like five phrases in German and he is pronouncing them terribly anyways. He also spent a year in the UK and he said by the time he left he was just starting to understand a little of what they were saying, even though they speak English lol.
Tatsujin:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-japanese-all-the-time-ajatt-how-to-learn-japanese-on-your-own-having-fun-and-to-fluency
click the links, read on. quit being arrogant and save yourself and us some trouble, yeah?
voltekka:
--- Quote ---Insert Quote
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-japanese-all-the-time-ajatt-how-to-learn-japanese-on-your-own-having-fun-and-to-fluency
click the links, read on. quit being arrogant and save yourself and us some trouble, yeah?
--- End quote ---
Suppose you're speaking to me? No need to be so pissy, nobody was being pissy with you.
I wasn't commenting on AJATT specifically. I was commenting on the idea that just immersion is the best/only way to go about things. Note the above conversation, where it was stated that it is the ONLY way to learn the language. Note such quotes above: "I don't think that studying from a 'teach yourself' book or software will really get you very far. If you really want to learn the language, then full immersion, learning the kanji and imitating native speakers is the only way to actually learn a language. So no learning grammar rules etc, just getting used to them after repeating examples a trillion times. " and the like.
Perhaps you are being a tad arrogant yourself, jumping to conclusions, no?
Aneroph:
Well, you guys think whatever you want about immersion, long story short, that website is just a "get rich quick" scheme sort of thing with goals that aren't even attainable. Listening to Japanese 24 hours a day is just not possible. I have a roommate that would just not be happy if I left Japanese playing while I sleep, and earphones would drown out my alarm. Not to mention there are still American things I enjoy doing that this guy would have me completely cut out of my schedule for 18 months or more. Anyways, if you can do it then by all means go ahead, but I can't so I take classes and do immersion sort of things when I can.
I did find something interesting on the site though https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7208 A cool Firefox plugin for learning kanji.
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